Collective Action Tent/Forum

Now you are providing me with a reading list which presumably you think will teach me about how wonderful postmodernism is? I mean…Judith Butler??? I wouldn’t use one of her books as toilet paper, for fear of catching some sort of infection where the sun doesn’t shine. If you asked me to name the single most hate-filled, misguided, intellectually dishonest human being on the planet, she’d be on my shortlist. The only person on your list who is actually worth reading is Rorty, and only then the purpose is to get an understanding of how deeply backwards postmodernism reached at its worst depths.

Why would I want to learn anything more about postmodernism? What could I possibly learn from a school of philosophy which spent its entire existence denying truth and creating exactly the “Meaning Crisis” that 2R is supposedly solving?

Prompt (to a clean AI): “What has the “Meaning Crisis” got to do with postmodernism?

This is an excellent and insightful question. The “Meaning Crisis” – a term popularized by philosopher John Vervaeke – and Postmodernism have a deeply intertwined, yet often antagonistic, relationship. Understanding their connection is key to understanding a major fault line in contemporary thought.

In short: Postmodernism is simultaneously a symptom of the Meaning Crisis and, for many of its critics (including Vervaeke), a significant aggravating cause of it.

Let’s break this down.

First, What is the “Meaning Crisis”?

Vervaeke argues that the Meaning Crisis is not just about feeling sad or anxious. It’s a cognitive crisis: a loss of relevance realization . This is our brain’s ability to sift through a flood of information and instantly grasp what is relevant to our goals, actions, and sense of self.

Historically, we had “technologies of the self” (religion, philosophy, ritual, art) that helped scaffold this relevance realization, providing:

  • A Cosmos: A meaningful, ordered universe where we fit.
  • A Self: A coherent, enduring agent with a purpose.
  • A Community: Shared rituals and values that connect us.
  • Wisdom: Not just information, but the practical, embodied skill of living well.

The Meaning Crisis is the collapse of these scaffolds due to scientific naturalism (a disenchanted, purposeless universe), the Protestant Reformation (fragmentation of authority), capitalism (commodification), and the information age (overload). The result is a feeling of futility, isolation, and the inability to discern what truly matters.

Second, What is Postmodernism’s Core Claim?

Postmodernism (as found in Lyotard, Derrida, Foucault, etc.) is a profound skepticism towards “metanarratives” – the big, unifying stories a culture tells itself to justify its knowledge, values, and power structures. Examples of metanarratives include:

  • The Christian story of salvation.
  • The Enlightenment story of progress through reason.
  • The Marxist story of liberation from class struggle.

Postmodernists argue that these narratives aren’t discovered truths but socially constructed tools of power. They “deconstruct” them, revealing internal contradictions, hidden biases, and how they marginalize alternative voices. The result is a radical anti-foundationalism: there is no ultimate ground for Truth, Meaning, or the Self. Everything is “text,” open to endless interpretation.

The Connection: Symptom and Aggravation

1. Postmodernism as a Sophisticated Description of the Symptom

Postmodernist thought brilliantly articulates the experience of the Meaning Crisis. It says:

  • “There is no Cosmos” (Lyotard): The grand story that gave the universe order is just a story. This matches the feeling of a disenchanted, meaningless universe.
  • “The Self is a decentered fiction” (Derrida, Foucault): There is no stable “I” behind your thoughts, just a product of language and power. This matches the feeling of a fragmented, incoherent identity.
  • “Truth is a construct of language games” (Rorty, late Derrida): There’s no truth to be known, only local, competing narratives. This matches the feeling of cognitive overload and the inability to realize relevance – if no truth is more real, how do you choose?

In this sense, postmodernism provides the philosophical vocabulary for the Meaning Crisis. It tells you, “That feeling of groundlessness you have? You’re right to have it. There is no ground.”

2. Postmodernism as an Aggravating Cause

For critics like Vervaeke, this is where postmodernism becomes dangerous. It doesn’t just describe the crisis; it actively deconstructs the very tools we need to solve it.

  • It attacks “Wisdom” as “Power”: A core part of overcoming the crisis is recovering genuine wisdom – the know-how of living. Postmodernism, especially Foucault, tends to reframe any claim to wisdom (therapist, teacher, guru, priest) as a hidden power play. This creates a paralyzing cynicism where any path toward meaning is immediately suspected of being a trap.
  • It rejects “Relevance Realization”: Vervaeke argues that some frames are more relevant, more adaptive, more true to reality than others (e.g., the scientific method works). Postmodernism’s radical relativism says one “language game” is as good as any other. This short-circuits our brain’s ability to learn from feedback and optimize for meaning. If all interpretations are equal, why try to be a better person or build a better society?
  • It offers a “hermeneutics of suspicion” but no “hermeneutics of recovery”: Postmodernism is a masterful scalpel for cutting apart false meanings. But it provides no guidance for weaving together new, genuine meanings. It leaves you in a heap of deconstructed parts with no blueprint. As Vervaeke says, you can’t live in permanent deconstruction.

The core conflict: Postmodernism says, “The ultimate cause of the crisis is the oppressive, illusory nature of all claims to Absolute Meaning.” Vervaeke and others say, “No, the ultimate cause is the loss of genuine, albeit fallible, frameworks of meaning. And by destroying all frameworks, postmodernism makes the crisis worse.”

A Crucial Distinction (And Where Vervaeke Goes)

It’s vital to distinguish postmodernism from post-critical or post-postmodern thinking.

Vervaeke is not a premodern traditionalist trying to bring back medieval Christianity. He agrees with the postmodern critique of naive realism and oppressive metanarratives. He accepts the lessons of deconstruction (be wary of power, be humble about your frames).

His project (the “Meaning Crisis” series) is to move through postmodernism, not go back behind it. He tries to build a new, more robust “relevance realization” using insights from:

  • Cognitive Science (4E cognition: embodied, embedded, extended, enactive)
  • Buddhist & Stoic philosophy (practices of attention and wisdom)
  • Platonism (reinterpreted as a process of participatory knowing, not abstract dogma)
  • Ritual & Flow States

He wants a participatory knowing that is both critically aware (postmodern) and genuinely transformative (premodern wisdom), grounded in a scientific understanding of the mind (modern).

Summary Table

Feature Postmodernism Meaning Crisis (Vervaeke’s view)
Core Problem Oppressive, hidden power structures in claims of universal truth. Loss of “relevance realization” - the ability to discern what matters.
View of Metanarratives Inherently totalitarian & illusory. Must be deconstructed. Necessary (but fallible) scaffolds for meaning. Their loss is the crisis.
View of the Self A decentered fiction, a product of language/power. A dynamic, embodied, and relational process that needs coherence.
Solution Endless critique, deconstruction, celebrating multiplicity and local “language games.” Rebuilding “wisdom” through participatory practices (dialog, ritual, contemplation, flow).
Relation to Meaning Crisis Symptom & Aggravator: Brilliantly describes the groundlessness, but then forbids you from building new ground. The condition to be solved: A real cognitive dysfunction, not a liberating philosophical insight.

Conclusion

Postmodernism is the philosophical echo of the Meaning Crisis. It heard the crash of the old cathedrals of meaning and, instead of trying to rebuild, declared that all cathedrals were prisons and that living in the rubble was true freedom.

The Meaning Crisis is the experience of the cold, drafty rubble. And the central intellectual and spiritual challenge of our time, which Vervaeke tackles head-on, is: How do we build new, resilient, and wise scaffolds for meaning after postmodernism has taught us to see all scaffolds as potential prisons?

No. I don’t not imagine you will think postmodernism is “wonderful”. Like most people in this forum and in the liminal web in general, you would more likely find postmodern lacking required elements for current meaning-making.

However, if you choose to use “postmodern” as an insult applied to others, do bother to understand what the word “postmodern” actually means. Otherwise, you mostly put your own ignorance on display.

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I know exactly what “postmodern” means. Scroll back up to the long post I wrote in response to dvdjsph’s AI-generated attempt to defend postmodern epistemology or click Collective Action Tent/Forum - Research and Sense-Making - Second Renaissance Forum.

The real problem here is not my failure to understand what postmodernism is, where it came from, and what it got wrong. The real problem is that 2R is supposed to be metamodern/post-postmodern, but in fact when somebody comes along and actually defends a real metamodern position (as defined by Storm), the response is a collective defense of postmodernism.

Your post above implies that the version of postmodernism I’m attacking is a strawman. This accusation is totally false – it is not even a little bit true. I am attacking postmodernism and defending metamodernism. You and everybody else here are defending postmodernism from a formal post-postmodern attack on it.

Do tell! Do my posts remind you more of Baudrillard? Or of Deleuze? Do my views come closer to Derrida? Or are my sensibilities more like those of Foucault? Feel free to quote both me and the original sources to illustrate your views.

Do tell! Do my posts remind you more of Baudrillard? Or of Deleuze? Do my views come closer to Derrida? Or are my sensibilities more like those of Foucault? Feel free to quote both me and the original sources to illustrate your views.

For the THIRD time: Collective Action Tent/Forum - Research and Sense-Making - Second Renaissance Forum.

Your posts consistently defend the central tenet of postmodernism: there is no truth. You can pick any of those four writers. All of them deny truth in exactly the same way you do. That is postmodernism, and the post linked to above, which you have repeatedly ignored, explains exactly how this situation came about. Analytic philosophy and science have never accepted this as legitimate, and there is no reason for anybody else to do so either.

And note that you are still defending postmodernism. You do not appear to be capable of understanding that the very fact you are defending postmodernism just proves my point. I am accusing you of being an unreformed postmodernist pretending to be “searching for metamodern ways to overcome postmodernism”, and you are responding with an extended, unapologetic defence of postmodernism.

QED, Robert.

Got it Geoff! Your overall judgment is that you’re absolutely right, and pretty much everyone else on this 2R forum is “catastrophically wrong.” So I wish you the best in finding your own space to get others to work with you within your framework. The problem is not your epistemic framework, which you would find many agree with, but about your relational approach to others, which appears to neglect a core aspect of the REALITY of what it means to exist as a “being-in-the-world-with-others”: Relationality.

My epistemic compass is guided by this core principle nurtured by all the great teachers of our religious and philosophic traditions. Those who cut themselves off from open relationality in order to try to get everyone else to just agree with their ideas, no matter how “correct” and brilliant those ideas might be, are undercutting both themselves and a regenerative ecological world, since they are neglecting the core work of what it means to live and build relationships of care WITH others.

So as I mentioned previously, since you’ve made it absolutely clear you’re not aligned with our relational process here, and find us to be disastrously wrong, nihilistic, worthless, and harmful, best of wishes and good luck with your work!

And given that you yourself have concluded that the approach to building a 2R on this Forum is not compatible with your views, it would now be helpful, I think, for both yourself and others on this Forum, for you to move on to other spaces where you might have better luck at finding what you are looking for. That would seem to be the obvious and wise next step for you, given what you’ve concluded about how wrong we all are here.

There is no truth to what you say about my positions. You just make stuff up. That may work in politics, but not so much here.

More postmodern thinking. The hidden assumption is that “my framework” is just something I extracted from my posterior, with no attempt to make it coherent with empirical science or analytic philosophy (neither of which is of the slightest interest to anybody here). That it is just another item from the infinite nonsense menu, and I’m demanding everybody else choose it, rather than their own preferred worldview. In other words, you are judging me by your own standards: those of postmodernism. You apparently haven’t considered the possibility that “my framework” is actually the correct one, even though I have provided extensive AI analyses which demonstrate in no uncertain terms that “my framework” is the hardcore scientific-philosophical system that 2R actually needs.

The problem is not your epistemic framework, which you would find many agree with, but about your relational approach to others, which appears to neglect a core aspect of the REALITY of what it means to exist as a “being-in-the-world-with-others”: Relationality.

Postmodern BS. What you mean by “Relationality” is “Everybody must be allowed their own truth.” Nobody is allowed to discuss the actual truth, because there is no such thing: all truths are “relational”. Right?

All of which is a superior-than-thou defence of postmodern relativism.

I find you to be one of the core problems 2R has officially identified (postmodern relativism) earnestly dressing itself up as the solution (post-postmodern re-connection with objective truth). I see no reason why I should not point this out repeatedly until the collective that is 2R finally grows a conscience, and starts looking at itself in the mirror.

And I think I should hold you and everybody else here responsible for what you are actually doing, which is attempting to present the deepest problem facing Western society as its own solution. You claim to be moving beyond postmodern relativism, but insist that the only way this can be done is to rigidly adhere to postmodern relativism. If you don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, maybe you need to do some more “inner work”. It’s like trying to cure heroin addiction by prescribing an infinite supply of heroin.

Postmodernists don’t know the meaning of the word “wisdom.” Or any other word, for that matter. Words can mean whatever anybody fancies them to mean because there is nothing beyond the text.

Nietzsche - Truth & Lies in a Nonmoral Sense (1873).pdf

What then is truth? A movable host of metaphors, metonymies, and anthropomorphisms: in short, a sum of human relations which have been poetically and rhetorically intensified, transferred, and embellished, and which, after long usage, seem to a people to be fixed, canonical, and binding. Truths are illusions which we have forgotten are illusions; they are metaphors that have become worn out and have been drained of sensuous force, coins which have lost their embossing and are now considered as metal and no longer as coins.

----> world goes to ****.

NOTE: the forum is telling me to allow others a chance to reply before responding, so I will check out of this thread until tomorrow.

So you’ll see yourself out?

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I am not intending to leave voluntarily, no.

For me, the sort of social discomfort that other people might feel in this situation, and which clearly other people here feel as a result of my interactions here, is just normal. I’ve always been an independent thinker, and I’ve inhabited spaces where both science and analytic philosophy meet the hard realities of ecological breakdown and civilisational collapse. For me, there’s no emotional consequences, because I accept that I am engaged in an intellectual conflict about what is true or real. What matters is the goal (the truth), not social cohesion.

Many people (normal people, not just integralists or whatever you want to call 2R) find this extremely difficult, especially if they find their own cherished beliefs under attack. All too often, at exactly the point where new thinking is required, people get angry and start behaving irrationally. Ego and emotions take over. This is never constructive, and I wish it could be avoided. However, the underlying process, at least when it works properly, is of collective truth-seeking. This is how science works, though science is limited by dogmatic adherence to the metaphysical assumptions of physicalism and naturalism, and to methodological assumptions such as reductionism. Analytical philosophy doesn’t suffer from that problem though.

Postmodern Continental philosophy abandoned this process altogether – it gave up on searching for any objective truths, which is what set it on a collision course with the rest of society. It ultimately tried to change Western society in ways that fundamentally deny truth, on the grounds that it both (a) cannot be reached and (b) is oppressive/authoritarian. This has had a devastating effect on Western culture. Metamodernism, at least as defined by Storm, has acknowledged that this abandonment has had catastrophic consequences, and now there must be a re-adoption of the search for Truth, having learned the lessons of the Modernist way of doing that. My dispute with 2R is caused by the fact that there is zero sign that this group has accepted that key principle of metamodernism. Everybody here is still playing the postmodern version of the game, where “Truth” is a dirty word, and all that matters is personal perspective. That means there is something fundamentally dishonest about the way 2R presents itself to the world – it is pretending it is something it actually isn’t.

The most important goal in my life - what gives it meaning- is to try to make happen the exact same paradigm shift 2R claims to aiming for. This requires the whole of Western society to renew its relationship with the truth, in an attempt to correct the damage caused by postmodern thinking. I do not see that happening here. Instead, I see total commitment to exactly the sort of postmodern relativist thinking which systematically denies truth.