# Counter perspectives on John Vervaeke
**URL:** https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325
**Category:** Research and Sense-Making
**Created:** [April 23, 2025, 3:19pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325 "2025-04-23T15:19:59Z")
**Posts on this page:** 11
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@liquidprism](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/liquidprism)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2025, 12:35pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/21 "2025-05-17T12:35:40Z")
Love this comment.
May I ask to what extent, if any, AI was used in its writing? (I’m trying to calibrate my awareness of that “good writing” looks like it various ways, as I am largely unpracticed)
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### Author:  [@Naeema](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/Naeema)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/22 "2025-05-17T14:51:47Z")
Thank you @liquidprism for your thoughtful comment 🙏
I’m really touched by it.
To your question: the words come through me, drawn from over two decades of work in campaigning, strategic communications, digital diplomacy, and conflict resolution. That journey has shaped how I write and speak, anchored in listening deeply, understanding where others are coming from, and responding with presence and care. Even when differences arise, I try to meet them as invitations to dialogue rather than division. At its heart, it’s often not about negotiating winning points, but about engaging worldviews, exploring the spaces and building bridges between us with curiosity and reverence.
I believe we can walk alongside one another, even with differing perspectives, in a kind of cross-pollination. There’s been, and continues to be, a lot of unlearning and re-learning on that path. The challenge is to remain authentic while honoring heritage, and to apply what we know with humility. And yes, for transparency I’m always in conversation with ideas, people, and sometimes AI. Since much of my GameA work involves civic technology, these tools are part of my ecosystem, though the essence always comes from lived experience and intention.
Soon, we’ll be opening a tent within the [Oasis Community Call](https://lu.ma/second-renaissance) about weaving together the cultural fabric of the 2R Forum and hope to explore these very questions and more. I would love to continue the conversation there with you.
Grateful again for your comment and the spirit in which you offered it.
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### Author:  [@ijscooman](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/ijscooman)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2025, 6:24pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/23 "2025-05-27T18:24:37Z")
To all Vervaeke eductioners!
I’m curious if this space can come alive, transforming from a digital to a living space.
Inspired by this thread I’m organizing a _contemplative hike_ in the theme of _meaning cultivation_ from _Sunday 6th of July till Thursday 10th of July_ in the serenes _Ardennes of Belgium. I want to provide a space for dialogue_ as we explore our inner landscapes while finding peace in nature’s beauty. Each day, we’ll hike approximately _15 to 20 kilometers_, allowing the conversations to evolve naturally, and following the through line between different perspectives. Evenings will be spent dining at a local village, and afterwards, we’ll retire to our cozy accommodations for a restful night. Whether you’re seeking reflection, connection, or simply the joy of the outdoors, this hike promises to be a meaningful experience. 🙂
_Price: €250_ (included: accommodation, excluded: food)
Join the Whatsapp group to sign up: [WhatsApp Group Invite](https://chat.whatsapp.com/GK6KNGuQfQZG5u9404HO9U)
More info on: [Contemplative Hike Ardennes — Sage Adventures](http://sageadventures.net/contemplativehike)
Hope to meet you on the hike 🙂
Matthijs
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### Author:  [@Gen](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/Gen)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2025, 2:20pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/24 "2025-09-14T14:20:38Z")
Snowden could hardly be framed as anyone’s fan. He is given to sweeping and dismissive statements that center his views as a given, and, if not strawmanning, certainly does not steelman the views of others.
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### Author:  [@RobertBunge](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/RobertBunge)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2025, 2:37pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/25 "2025-09-14T14:37:52Z")
Having spent over a dozen hours with Snowden in person last year, I wracked by brain from examples of anyone he explicitly praised. Came up empty. So here is Copilot for the assist:
Who does Dave Snowden admire the most?
###### Copilot said:
**Copilot**
Dave Snowden has expressed deep admiration for **Max Boisot** , a late friend and fellow complexity theorist. Boisot’s **I-Space framework** was a major inspiration for Snowden’s own work, particularly the development of the **Cynefin Framework**. Snowden credits Boisot’s ideas as foundational in shaping his thinking around knowledge management and complexity science
Snowden also tends to admire **scientific rigor** and **transdisciplinary approaches** , drawing from fields like anthropology, cognitive neuroscience, theoretical physics, and material engagement theory. He is notably critical of management gurus who rely on oversimplified case studies, preferring methods grounded in natural science and complexity theory.
If you’re interested, I can also summarize how Boisot’s I-Space framework influenced Cynefin, or explore other thinkers Snowden has referenced in his work. Would you like that?
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### Author:  [@Gen](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/Gen)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/26 "2025-09-14T17:35:26Z")
Thanks I’ll be looking into this for some insight:
> [@RobertBunge](#):
>
> Boisot’s I-Space framework
I admire Dave’s work, but I’m afraid we have had a few clashes. I sense he is more interested in being right rather than curious or collaborative, but maybe I just rub him up the wrong way.
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### Author:  [@RobertBunge](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/RobertBunge)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2025, 5:39pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/27 "2025-09-14T17:39:07Z")
> [@Gen](#):
>
> I just rub him up the wrong way.
You and 99% of humanity. From Dave’s own account, the family dinner table of his youth was the intellectual equivalent of a gladiator school. Nothing much changed for him in that regard after he left the parental home.
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### Author:  [@Asimong](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/Asimong)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2025, 6:15pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/28 "2025-09-14T18:15:20Z")
For sure! I also see Dave as having a strong streak of self-assurance. Interesting to see Copilot’s flagging of Boisot, who I haven’t heard of. Trivia: I first came across Dave in person nearly 50 years ago, though I was a nonentity with zero charisma and he doesn’t remember me from that time 😂 as I confirmed when I met up with him a few years ago. (He was a prime mover in the [Student Christian Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Christian_Movement_of_Great_Britain) in those days, late 70’s and maybe early 80’s.)
From what I heard and gathered about his personal history, he needed that self-assurance. So really I’m not at all surprised at these reports. Like I try to do with all-comers, I appreciate his very interesting and insightful work — I often help people get closer to the correct pronunciation of “Cynefin”. While valuing the Cynefin model, I’m not so convinced by the triangle model of his Sensemaker framework. (If anyone is particularly insightful about this I’d be curious and open to dialogue.)
I see Dave’s triangle model as missing the point that George Kelly was making, decades ago. In his Personal Construct theoretical framework, he had any number of bipolar constructs, and the triads he used were to identify the constructs. I wish I could find a piece I remember reading very recently about how his triangle model came to be.
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### Author:  [@RobertBunge](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/RobertBunge)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2025, 6:42pm UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/29 "2025-09-14T18:42:49Z")
> [@Asimong](#):
>
> I see Dave’s triangle model as missing the point that George Kelly was making, decades ago. In his Personal Construct theoretical framework, he had any number of bipolar constructs, and the triads he used were to identify the constructs.
I don’t know much about Kelly’s work or what he was getting at. Further clarification would be most welcome! As far as I can tell, Snowden uses triads to mix things up. A comparable approach was Edward De Bono’s “good-bad-interesting”. The third category of “interesting” livens up discussions and opens creative horizons.
What I took away from Snowden - and plan on keeping - is to go for raw data first, analytical frameworks later. Generally, a grounded theory approach.
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### Author:  [@Gen](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/Gen)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2025, 7:48am UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/30 "2025-09-15T07:48:31Z")
> [@RobertBunge](#):
>
> If you’re interested, I can also summarize how Boisot’s I-Space framework influenced Cynefin, or explore other thinkers Snowden has referenced in his work. Would you like that?
Yes please, I would like that
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### Author:  [@RobertBunge](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/u/RobertBunge)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2025, 8:33am UTC](https://forum.secondrenaissance.net/t/counter-perspectives-on-john-vervaeke/325/31 "2025-09-15T08:33:04Z")
I now recall the Deleuze comes up in Snowden’s talks. Copilot did not catch that. The general thrust of a lot of this is to keep thinking fluid and to not fixate on particular ideas, especially in advance.
===================
Yes, please summarize how Boisot’s I-Space framework influenced Cynefin, or explore other thinkers Snowden has referenced in his work.
###### Copilot said:
**Copilot**
Great! Here’s a summary of how **Max Boisot’s I-Space framework** influenced **Dave Snowden’s Cynefin Framework** , along with other key thinkers Snowden has referenced in his work:
* * *
## **🔷 Boisot’s I-Space and Its Influence on Cynefin**
### **📘 Boisot’s I-Space (Information Space) Framework**
Boisot’s I-Space is a model for understanding how knowledge flows and evolves in organizations. It maps knowledge along three dimensions:
1. **Codification** – how structured or formalized the knowledge is.
2. **Abstraction** – how general or context-free the knowledge is.
3. **Diffusion** – how widely the knowledge is shared.
The I-Space shows how knowledge moves through a cycle: from uncodified and abstract (tacit knowledge) to codified and widely diffused (explicit knowledge), and back again.
### **🔄 Influence on Cynefin**
Snowden drew on Boisot’s insights to shape how **knowledge and context** interact in complex systems. Key influences include:
- **Contextualization of knowledge** : Cynefin emphasizes that knowledge is not universally applicable—it must be interpreted within context, much like Boisot’s view of knowledge moving between abstract and concrete forms.
- **Movement between domains** : Just as knowledge in I-Space flows through a cycle, Cynefin allows for **movement between domains** (e.g., from Complex to Complicated) as understanding evolves.
- **Tacit vs. explicit knowledge** : Snowden’s emphasis on **narrative, sense-making, and human experience** reflects Boisot’s concern with the limitations of codified knowledge.
Snowden has said that Boisot’s work helped him understand **why knowledge management often fails** —because it ignores the **non-linear, contextual, and emergent** nature of knowledge.
* * *
## **🧠 Other Thinkers Snowden References**
### **1. Mary Douglas (Anthropologist)**
- Her work on **cultural theory** and **risk perception** influenced Snowden’s thinking about how different groups interpret the same data differently.
### **2. Stuart Kauffman (Complexity Scientist)**
- Kauffman’s ideas about **self-organization** and **adjacent possible** helped shape Cynefin’s Complex domain, where cause and effect can only be understood in retrospect.
### **3. Bruno Latour (Science and Technology Studies)**
- Snowden draws on Latour’s **actor-network theory** to emphasize the **distributed nature of knowledge** and the role of non-human actors (e.g., tools, systems).
### **4. Edgar Morin (Philosopher of Complexity)**
- Morin’s emphasis on **interconnectedness and uncertainty** aligns with Snowden’s critique of reductionist thinking in management.
### **5. James C. Scott (Political Scientist)**
- Snowden appreciates Scott’s work on **local knowledge** and **resistance to top-down control** , especially in complex systems.
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