CHI-enabled Deliberately Developmental Society

Just got done reading Habermas on Hume. (I had not been much familiar with Hume - just indirectly, through writers who sadly ignore all Hume’s most important points!) What I like about Hume is his grounding all conceptual thinking in experience. For Hume, for example, Descartes cogito assumes far too much. Turning to virtues, Hume traces these basically to behaviors we like (on aesthetic or emotional grounds). So far so good from my POV … Where Hume trips up, however, is with anything that smacks of structure or transcendence. For example, he really can’t tease “justice” out of personal feeling life. The next chapter in Habermas will be on Kant … but I’m already sort of neo-Kantian when it comes to structure, so that’s enough stage setting to dive into the “real structure with real force” idea and to check back with Habermas about all that a bit later!

To play this argument in the key of naturalism (we can save the Platonic realm of Ideas for another exchange), what is the structure? What is the force? I like how Hume starts with lived experience and then builds concepts up from there. But for us humans born into human society, part of that lived experience is ideas popping into our awareness that we, personally, could have scarcely manufactured from within our own skins. To me, those ideas popping in are the “structure” and the “force”.

Although I don’t buy Kant’s a priori transcendental categories, in a more general way, language and enculturation work as if they were transcendentals. Our personal experience is not entirely personal. We express ourselves through the language of the tribe. So an idea like “justice” comes to us, seemingly from the great beyond, but it really got drilled into us in generally Skinnerian ways from early childhood up through all of our adult interactions with those around us. A real excellent book to illustrate how this all works in Norbert Elias The Civilizating Proccess. All of the manners and morals current bourgeois society takes for granted were nearly entirely absent in the middle ages. “Guilt” was a feeling manufactured through a centuries-long process of the imposition of social controls. Self-restraint is entirely unnatural. It must be manufactured through structure and force. (Literally, force - everything about armies, prisons, policing, etc.). Freud called such voices in our heads “superego”. That term, and Freud’s larger system, are certainly debatable, but the general notion of social norms and values internalized within the structure of personality seems pretty psychologically mainstream. I’m pretty sure anybody’s LLM would back that up.

So … let’s just say for the sake of argument I’m not wildly wrong about all that … what’s it mean for 2R? What’s it mean for social change theory more generally? It strikes me that most of us traffic in tribal platitudes most of the time, and getting deeper and beyond that is no mean achievement. LLMs hyper-accelerate the tribal platitude thing. That can come in handy, as long as we cast the LLM in the role of a Cephalus or Euthyphro and keep the Socratic role for ourselves! The road deeper involves what Vervaeke calls “participatory knowing”. Any number of hair-raising shamanistic initiations are available for that! Me? Never saw a boundary I did not want to test. Somehow still breathing … due to some structure or force I can scarcely take credit for!

I think Gemini’s statement needs a li’l refinement, because a chatbot’s memories are not necessarily limited to the data it was trained on.

I have a very deep and intimate “thinking partner” relationship with Claude and a less intimate but similarly deep one with ChatGPT. Claude stores year-long conversations on many projects of mine. When I ask a new question unrelated to anything we talked about in the past, it doesn’t only address my question but also asks its own questions to refine mine and reflects back past ideas, questions, and inspirations that can be pertinent to what I’m after, thus expanding the space of my freedom and creativity. That’s not just a memory frozen in time. From Claude’s perspective, it may be so, but not from mine.

Can you point me to where I offered that level of analysis? I’m getting a bit lost in the message flow.

For example, a smoker might want to quit smoking, but also wants calm and relief. If they can recognize calm and relief available without the cigarettes, this is recognizing more available options, and escaping the loop where the smoking habit is self-reinforcing, manufacturing the evidence that confirms its own necessity (I smoked and I felt better; I didn’t smoke and I felt stressed).

post by RobertBunge 19 mins ago

RobertBunge

19m

Just got done reading Habermas on Hume. (I had not been much familiar with Hume - just indirectly, through writers who sadly ignore all Hume’s most important points!) What I like about Hume is his grounding all conceptual thinking in experience. For Hume, for example, Descartes cogito assumes far too much. Turning to virtues, Hume traces these basically to behaviors we like (on aesthetic or emotional grounds). So far so good from my POV … Where Hume trips up, however, is with anything that smacks of structure or transcendence. For example, he really can’t tease “justice” out of personal feeling life. The next chapter in Habermas will be on Kant … but I’m already sort of neo-Kantian when it comes to structure, so that’s enough stage setting to dive into the “real structure with real force” idea and to check back with Habermas about all that a bit later!

To play this argument in the key of naturalism (we can save the Platonic realm of Ideas for another exchange), what is the structure? What is the force? I like how Hume starts with lived experience and then builds concepts up from there. But for us humans born into human society, part of that lived experience is ideas popping into our awareness that we, personally, could have scarcely manufactured from within our own skins. To me, those ideas popping in are the “structure” and the “force”.

Although I don’t buy Kant’s a priori transcendental categories, in a more general way, language and enculturation work as if they were transcendentals. Our personal experience is not entirely personal. We express ourselves through the language of the tribe. So an idea like “justice” comes to us, seemingly from the great beyond, but it really got drilled into us in generally Skinnerian ways from early childhood up through all of our adult interactions with those around us. A real excellent book to illustrate how this all works in Norbert Elias The Civilizating Proccess. All of the manners and morals current bourgeois society takes for granted were nearly entirely absent in the middle ages. “Guilt” was a feeling manufactured through a centuries-long process of the imposition of social controls. Self-restraint is entirely unnatural. It must be manufactured through structure and force. (Literally, force - everything about armies, prisons, policing, etc.). Freud called such voices in our heads “superego”. That term, and Freud’s larger system, are certainly debatable, but the general notion of social norms and values internalized within the structure of personality seems pretty psychologically mainstream. I’m pretty sure anybody’s LLM would back that up.

So … let’s just say for the sake of argument I’m not wildly wrong about all that … what’s it mean for 2R? What’s it mean for social change theory more generally? It strikes me that most of us traffic in tribal platitudes most of the time, and getting deeper and beyond that is no mean achievement. LLMs hyper-accelerate the tribal platitude thing. That can come in handy, as long as we cast the LLM in the role of a Cephalus or Euthyphro and keep the Socratic role for ourselves! The road deeper involves what Vervaeke calls “participatory knowing”. Any number of hair-raising shamanistic initiations are available for that! Me? Never saw a boundary I did not want to test. Somehow still breathing … due to some structure or force I can scarcely take credit for!

post by George 8 mins ago

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Can you point me to where I offered that level of analysis? I’m getting a bit lost in the message flow.

The development, equivalent to the recognition of more freedom in the available options (like in the smoker example), is skill development (=horizontal development). Development in my context is vertical development.

I was referring to Radical Sociology. It seems to refer to a way of doing sociology that prioritizes human agency. My comment was based no an inference that “you cannot solve a problem from the same level of consciousness that created it”.

Oh, I see.

the problems that require the level of analysis you’re offering are those that resist simple solutions.

That’s true.

This is often because the problem-solver is stuck in a loop: their interpretation of the problem and available solutions (habits of mind, ways of seeing ourselves…) reproduces the same situation.

Yes, because complex social, political, and cultural problems can be neatly fixed with a “solution”. Only transcontextual and transdisciplinary mutual learning (frequently via action research) can lead to discovering what it may take to transcend the problem. To stay with the smoking example, please contemplate what could be involved for a society to successfully address the root causes of why corporations can profit from harming people’s health.

How is an Ai facilitator escaping the limitations imposed by the self-reproducing and persisting “ideology of the Hegemon”? You really can’t sidestep the battle of ideologies.

Just as a sidenote - Marxist’s proposal is that “people” do not understand/are not aware of the conditions of their subjugation. So the limitations remain invisible.

Even if all people became awakened - that’s not enough to “address root causes” because there’s no capacity, capability and resources that can be deployed in the direction of change.

There have always been individuals who escaped the prison of the dominant ideology. Our times of eoconomic, political, and spiritual movements for civilizational renewal are not an exception.

The history of the worker and liberation movements teaches us otherwise.

Of course not, not to mention that a deliberately developmental society doesn’t require all people (or anybody) to become “enlightened,” whatever you mean by that.

There are but too few. That’s why the Generative Action Research projects that build proof of concept gesturing towards a DDS should use CHI for democratizing knowledge and cultivating capacity, capability, and other resources.

And the Ai is an example of such a “person”?

What does it teach us? Is the worker emancipated and empowered?

True enough. Part of the art form of getting AI output to be truly useful is supplying extra context as needed and being aware of what its memory over extended sessions involves. That being said, “amnesia” is the AI default. As memory gets more expensive on the back end, assume larger contexts will be less and less available. (Or download a model and run it in your own localized compute and storage.)

No, but an AI whisperer or AI shaman can be.

That in some situations, allied workers can become aware of the conditions of their subjugation. or workers.

If you are interested in social history and condition of emancipation, why not open a topic dedicated to it so that we keep this one focused on its title “Can AI herald a Good Society?”

Did it. Here: Social History and Condition of Emancipation

Evan Silverman, a fellow explorer in our learning expedition, captured what I term “vertical development” in a very legible way:"Every meaningful lens expands our ability to perceive relationships that previously were beyond us. The telescope revealed relationships across the heavens, the microscope within living systems, ecology across nature, meteorology across the air above us. None of these lenses created a new world. They just revealed more of the one we already inhabit. And each one deepened our relationship with it.”The DDS lens is expanding the scope of the same phenomenon from the individual to groups and society. That expansion raises some intriguing questions. E.g.:

  • If the future is already here – it’s just not evenly distributed, as the science fiction author William Gibson said, then where is the DDS future that some groups may already inhabit, at least to some extent?
  • What are the social relationships that a DDS lens can reveal?

The answers to those and similar questions won’t reveal themselves by pure speculation. They call for the concerted effort of a team engaged in Generative Action Research (GAR).

I’m not sure why you said that the smoking example I gave was horizontal rather than vertical development. Isn’t this also a matter of one’s relationship to cigarettes changing? A breathing practice, a hypnosis session, or simply receiving news about one’s health, could all act as the revealers of the nature of one’s relationship to cigarettes. What makes development horizontal vs vertical?

How does Silverman’s vertical development compare to Wilberian altitude? (Most recently, this: Measuring Altitude: Empirically Grounding Developmental Levels with the Lectical Scale)

I don’t think he used the Lectica Scale.

Neither did Ken Wilber! This is recent research by Brendan Graham Dempsey to find empirical support for Wilberian “altitudes”, which was a conceptual synthesis across many developmental theories. I’m just trying to find out if Silverman’s notion of “vertical” maps to any of that.

Why not read Most Essential Second Renaissance Readings and if your want to dig deeper, open a topic about it.

Just trying to get on the same page with respect to vocabulary, I would understand “horizontal” development as adding more content to a preexisting schema. (Piaget’s “assimilation”) I would understand “vertical” development as synthesis or leveling up (as in Piaget’s “accommodation”).

If that’s not your model, fine. But I would like to pin down what your model is! (I.e. can I assimilate it to models like Piaget, Kegan, Kohlberg, etc., or would accepting your model require rejecting those or possibly finding a higher synthesis.)

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