Responses to Presentations in Second Renaissance Explorer Course v4 [April 2026]

Preface

This text was recently shared in the WhatsApp group for the course “From Metacrisis to Second Renaissance”. It is a response paper to the first four whitepapers as well as the course.

After our third course session I added the section of “Appendix 1: Further comments”, in which I seek to make my arguments more clear, cohesive, and add a little extra. In addition to this, I also included “artifacts” to be included in my description of “culture”.

I welcome all comments.

Introduction

First, a big thanks to Rufus, Sylvie, the other helpers, and Lifeitself for offering this “From Metacrisis to Second Renaissance” course and for showing up with such spirit and commitment. Also a special thanks to Rufus, for welcoming any kind of comments around the course, including even “dissident” voices, time will show if he will regret this.

Prior to starting this course, I have read the first four “whitepapers” available from the Lifeitself website. I can only encourage other people to read these. They contain a lot of information, they make an excellent analysis, they bring things together and it is all written in what I would say is a very accessible language. Now we are in between the 2nd and 3rd session of the course, and all my comments are based upon these whitepapers and the course so far.

Reading through the whitepapers, some let’s say resistance or hesitation did present itself for me. In addition to this, I have been working on something for quite a while, which also cuts into this overall presentation. This has resulted in what I call the three issues. Issue 1 is a more in-depth explanation of the comment I made in our last session, in regards to the overall framework of the course, where I suggested a different approach. Issue 2 is regarding the word “inner”, which comes up quite many times throughout the whitepapers. I will try to explain what I find problematic about this and how an alternative view about this might look like. Issue 3 is regarding my own work and how I think that some new discoveries fundamentally could change the whole scenery about how we go about this and where we could end up.

Issue 1: What approach?

The approach of the whitepapers and the course

Both the whitepapers and the course makes use of this framework, which is analogous to a medical approach, and also close to how the Buddha framed his Four Noble Truths. Below is the four week list:

Week 1: Symptoms of the Crisis: The Polycrisis

Week 2: A Diagnosis: The Metacrisis

Week 3: Prognosis: We Can Evolve and Heal

Week 4: Treatment: The Path to Renaissance

In addition to this, the course also suggests four different layers of depth:

  1. Surface, - “symptoms”, manifelt crisis

  2. Intermediate, structures and technologies

  3. Root - cultural paradigm, modernity

  4. Root - human nature, deep tendencies

A different approach

As I said in our last call, I wish to present a different approach, which is:

  1. What is the situation now?

  2. Where would we like to end up? (Our ideal)

  3. What plans and actions are needed to realize this?

These three are of equal importance and interdependent. There is however an order of how you approach it, first 1, then 2, then 3.

There are at least three advantages to this approach as I see it.

Advantage 1

The first advantage is a part of an answer to what Victor was asking about in our last call, which was about if these “problems” that we “identified” were “real or not”.

So let me start somewhere else. I think the way that most lets say school and academic papers today are structured, is that they basically start out with a “problem formulation” (you are describing a problem, that you then spend your text trying to address).

I think it would be much better, if papers instead started with what is essentially a “wish”, something good you want to achieve. “Problems” in this view, would then potentially naturally arise, as you try to achieve your wish. You start with a wish, and what prevents you from realizing this, you could refer to as a problem. So in this sense, problems are not something in themselves, but rather a part of a larger whole, where we humans are actually valuing something, and then from this valuing, a problem can be said to exist.

So coming back to the framework. In step 1 we “describe” and understand present reality as deeply as we can. However, one does not need to hold very firmly on to what they think are “problems” here. Problems exist in a context. Rather, it is more important to see things in terms of “description” which is to say “trying to understand how things are and are related”. Of course, there may be many things that we rather be without or be different, but then identifying what is possible to change and how change most effectively can happen, is what is important.

The second step is asking, where really would we like to end up? Including all values, all institutions, everything happening etc. This has to be realistic in the sense of adhering to physical laws, our human nature, etc.

Finally then, making plans and continuing to realize them.

So, coming back to the course framework, I think this approach ensures that whatever we are doing, this would be linked to valued reasons for doing it.

Advantage 2

The second reason for preferring this approach kinda follows in the wake of the first reason. I would just outright claim that there exists more intrinsic motivation in “trying to achieve what you really would like” rather than “solving a problem”.

Sure, if you are ill, you would normally have a natural motivation to get well again. But then again, isn’t the motivation here coming from the wish to return to a state where you felt better and/or were able to do more? If our motivation in a large part comes from moving towards something we really value, why do we not put what we really value, at the very forefront of our endeavors?

So I think reframing this, giving a larger emphasis on something positive that we would like, rather than to avoid something bad, would give more overall and sustained motivation.

Advantage 3

The third advantage has to do with how I see “action” in general.

Should I try to define “action”, I would define it, in this exact same way. Every “action”, in my understanding of what I mean by action, consists of an understanding of the present situation, some kind of “ideal”, and then having a plan for realizing this ideal and carrying it out.

I would say that “action” is quite an interesting concept. For example, you can think of an action as you sitting in a café and feeling thirsty (situation), would like to drink something (ideal), you reaching for some drink on the table or ordering something if you haven’t yet (a plan and carrying out the plan).

But, how “large” is an “action”? What about “making dinner”? Could we think about making dinner some day, as being one action? Because in making dinner, there could very well be many smaller actions coming together around making a full dinner, for example finding pots and pans, cutting different vegetables, cooking, arranging, etc.

How about attending a three year college program? What about the wish to become a buddhist monk, living in a monastery with the aim of becoming “enlightened”?

I am of the view that in fact we could put anything into the bracket of “an action”. How exactly to understand and discriminate an action then is not entirely clear for me, but I would say that there would have to be an intention along with a specific goal. In a large sense, it is the intention that keeps an “action” “alive”. Of course, intention is one thing, the reality we live in is another. You may have the intention of cooking one evening, but then you end up burning the only food you had available, and you decide to get take-away instead.

Anyways, the reason why I think it is important that the overall framework aligns with (at least how I see) an “action”, is because then this whole process of investigation becomes more organic.

If we get information in a way that aligns with what an action is, then it just becomes more intuitive, more simple and more accessible, rather than receiving information that we would then have to reorder afterwards.

Issue 2: The “Inner” “Outer” Distinction

The use of “Inner” and “Outer” today

Throughout the four whitepapers there is a heavy use of the “inner” “outer” distinction, often just talking about the “inner” side or “inner” development or things like that.

This distinction is also made by Ken Wilber in his AQAL model. I don’t know if he was the originator of this distinction, here is a AI quote about Wilbers model:

“Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory (AQAL) maps reality using four quadrants, splitting perspectives into inner (subjective/interior) vs. outer (objective/exterior) and individual vs. collective. This framework ensures a complete view by combining interior intentions/culture with exterior behaviors/systems, acknowledging that all four dimensions exist simultaneously in any human experience.”

Also for example the notion of inner is central for the new initiative of “Inner Developmental Goals” (https://innerdevelopmentgoals.org/).

This is to say that this distinction is very widely used, at least in this “Liminal Web” space.

However, I believe that there are some fundamental problems with this distinction that I would like to go into.

The helpfullness and unhelpfullness of this distinction

So first off, it is not that I am against this distinction per se. It can be useful in some circumstances, highlighting some certain aspect or emphasizing something. The problem arises if you put it as something really fundamental, such as Wilber has done and I think also the whitepapers do. For me, this is definitely not a fundamental distinction, and to see it this way, is really misleading and affects how you view human nature, our ability to act, what culture is, etc.

To put it very simple, this model lends itself to the belief that what we can really do is around this inner aspect, how we see, feel, approach things, and then we are living in this world of “structures”, “institutions”, “buildings” etc., which more or less are the way they are. These “outer” things could of course also be changed, but that is really a process in its own right, and you would probably need to look at something like the “political” to go about that.

An alternative way of seeing these matters

Ok, so is there a more “true” or “close to reality” way of seeing this? Below I would like to present the outskirts of a model that I made roughly 6 years ago. This model is actually the sketch of a full on attempt at making a Theory of Everything (ToE). This model as such attempts to capture all of reality, yet also making divisions, distinctions, and orderings as to how things conceptually could be organized. There are 9 headlines, each representing a major organizing principle. Everything is interconnected. Also, you can view it as being ordered in a grid, where 1, 2, 3 belongs to column 1. 4, 5, 6, belongs to column 2. 7, 8, 9, belongs to column 3. You could also see it the other way, where 1, 4, 7, would be row 1, and etc. Also again, this is really a highly unfinished and flawed sketch, which can only maybe give a basic idea about some things.

Ok, so I would like you to look at the definition of 9. Culture. In addition to what I wrote 6 years ago, I would like to just add some content to this definition. “Culture” also includes shared values, norms, practices. These are again embedded in our actions, what we do. Culture then, is also value-laden actions, which are shared in a group. The results of these actions, buildings, artifacts, etc. could also be seen as part of culture.

Ok, then I would like you to notice how culture is situated among the 8 other headlines. Also notice how culture is in a sense the “last” of these headlines, it is the end of both the column and row way of looking at this. So, in a sense, everything else is leading to culture.

1. Universe

The Universe is all, the universe is everything. All things, planets, people, atoms, are part of the universe.

2. Experience

There is experience. Each one of us experiences the world. Experience constitutes everything that we are aware of. There is also understanding. Understanding is how each of us understands ourself and the world in which we are in. The experience and understanding we have are part of the universe.

A subdivision of this part consists of experience, understanding, and perspective.

3. Symbols

Symbols come into being by referring to something else. There is much focus on written language as symbols but perhaps we should pay more attention to oral language.

4. Unfolding

The Universe is constantly unfolding. There is entropy. There is change. There is complexity.

5. Belief

There is belief. Belief is that which you act upon. Some other animals may have a version of beliefs as well.

A subdivision of this part consists of learning, believing, and practicing.

6. Creating

By creating it means the ability to relate to the world in an abstract way and make things which did not exist before such as symbols, technology or institutions.

What kind of processes did words like “hello” or “thank you” originate from? What meaning were those sounds meant to convey? Symbols are part of the human experience.

7. Propositions

There are propositions. Many of the things written in this model are propositions. A proposition could be: ‘the sun is hot’.

There are also judgements and standards. With judgements a standard is used and something is judged according to this standard.

There is narrative.

8. Communication

Communication in some form can exist between all living organisms. Communication is the exchange of some matter, energy or information between organisms.

9. Culture

The culture in this sense means that there are interpretations, understandings and stories embedded in symbols which are inherited from past generations and given to new generations.

Culture, what we share, and the necessity of abstraction

Ok, so to try to sum up on this. So in a large and simple sense, what we do, which is shared among us, could be called culture. But I guess this is also misleading because, then in what way does culture distinguish itself from let’s say other animals who also “share behavior”? So, when I am talking about this thing that is shared, this can not be based upon instinct or efficiency alone. This has to have an abstract element.

Abstraction is when “something” is taken “out of” a “whole picture” and “looked at” in “isolation” [sorry for the excessive use of quotation marks]. In other words, it is the ability to in principle consider something in-and-of-itself, in relation to whatever it may be.

When I am talking about something which is shared in a culture, there would be an element of abstraction to it. It is exactly because there is an element of abstraction to it, that we can share something among ourselves in a non-idiosyncratic or situation-bound way. On another note, one might also say that to the degree that other animals, can have abstract thought, they can also have culture.

The analogy of the fish in water

Okay, but still how is this directly relevant with the whitepapers etc.? So in the whitepapers, and I believe there will be in the 3rd course session, there is the analogy of the fish in water. If I interpret the analogy correctly, the analogy is that we could perhaps say that “fish don’t know that they are in water, because they have always been there, and know of nothing else”. [I guess flying fish are an exception to this, since they do experience “air”. Perhaps they are in constant deep metaphysical speculation and are constantly frustrated by the fact that other fish do not get their points] This is interesting because we as humans are familiar with let’s say “ground”, “air”, more stuff, and then also “water”. So we, from the “outside”, can say that the “fish is in water” and “how would a fish know what water is, if it knows nothing else?”.

You can then try to transfer the analogy to humans by saying that in a sense, humans are also born somewhere, they are perhaps told the world is such and such a place and they have their own experiences, and it is sort of “ok, this is it, this is what it is”. That in a sense you consider the reality as what it is, and that it is immutable.

To “see the water” or “know you are in water” is then to realize that there is a history to everything, many things are created one way or the other, that things may be some way now but that this was not set, given, by necessity and that things could be different.

And then, if I understand the presentation correctly, the analogy stops. Which I think is not taking this analogy as deep as you could go with it. So there are two things I would like to add on to this analogy.

Two additions to the analogy of the fish

First addition

So for me, realizing we are in water, that it is in some sense created, the real question then is: What kind of water do we want? We are in part creating this water, so let us take ownership and consider this question.

Second addition

The second addition to the analogy going away from considering “all of reality” to simply considering “culture”. So, let us again imagine being the fish, and all we are experiencing now is “culture”. What actually does this look like? Ok, so first of all, we could say we see other fish. How every other fish moves. Second we could also see the results of these fishes movement, the artifacts being created. So there are other fish moving and the results of this movement over time.

Concluding thoughts on why the “inner” “outer” is problematic

I hope with this fish example, that I have made it clear what I find problematic about the “inner”, “outer”, distinction as a central thing. What we do is the culture. There is no layer in between our actions and our culture. And of course, you and what you do, is part of culture.

So for example, I have seen some examples where some people would say that “institutions” are “not part of culture” (I do not know if the white papers express this view or not, it’s not explicit at least). But so, buildings are human made, and there are values behind building them. That people would go in and out of these buildings every day is a human practice, it is culture. The institutions we have today are a part of the culture we have today.

So my concluding point here is that not having any intermediate layer between us and culture is absolutely central if we were to have any wishes of shaping our culture. I think the inner, outer framework is lending itself to seeing a layer, and therefore I think it is problematic.

Issue 3: Introducing a new logic

Is a new logic possible?

The 3rd issue is really about omitting something. Nowhere in the whitepapers is there a mention of a possible new logic. This is however not so surprising, as I am not aware of any place in our present day discourse, where there is a mention of a new higher logic.

So here I am, claiming that a new higher logic, possibly could exist. The existence of this logic would not only change what society we might have in the future but also what path we might take to end up in such a society.

Brief description of the logic

I will just briefly describe the new logic here. The description below is from a session I had at the 2026 Limicon. The description is paired with the title of: “Is it possible for one framework to contain ‘anything’/‘everything’?" Below the description is a link to the actual presentation I gave, which gives an overview of the logic.

“Well, if we use mainstream logic (with one or more premises leading to a conclusion), I would say it is not possible.

However, what if an approach to logic existed which had infinite complexity and at the same time everything being connected? How would that look like?

Secondly, how do you feel about the idea that ‘smaller ideas’ could be contained in ‘larger ideas’ (e.g. golden retriever, dog, mammal, animal, (and finally) the universe)? And that this would go from the ‘very bottom’ to the ‘very top’?

Ok, if you could imagine this, could I then ask you, what would be the 9 ideas at the very top? The 9 ideas that would contain all other ideas?

I make a guess about which 9 ideas this might be.”

Presentation: https://drive.google.com/file/d/19rIPduDQhvPLo_0Zd9pFoo8DPA4zLl9G/view?usp=sharing.

It is important to emphasize that what I am sharing here, is not an actual working model for what this logic is or how it works. It is rather work that speaks to the possibility of there existing a logic along these lines. In order to suggest something so abstract such as this, you would also need an actual sketch of how it might look like, which there is in a rather few words.

The overall claims

So what are the claims, in regards to this new logic? The overall claim is that any and all content/information/knowledge//(call it what you want) could be included into this framework. This would mean that all disciplines, traditions/“religions”, could be understood and included in the same framework. This changes quite literally “everything”.

Where do we go from here?

Ok, so where do we go from here? Before anything else, we should first examine whether this new logic exists or not. In the case that it seems to exist, we would then need to get to know it, what is it really? How is it grounded? How does it work? And also trying to apply it in different areas and see what results come.

I believe that everything being equal and there being no resistance, then humans will prefer “truth” over “not truth”. The same thing also applies to “success” over “not success”, everything being equal and no resistances.

The academic system as an early point of cultural change

One way to proceed further from this could be by asking “what function does the academic system have in society?” An answer to this might be something like “To hold and share knowledge and do research”. Central to the academic system is the notion of “science”.

How well understood and defined is “science” today? Is there an agreement in the academic system about what the best understanding of what science is?

Ok, so one claim I would make is that it is possible to create a more rigorous, intuitive, true, useful and fruitful understanding of “science” than what currently exists. With this I also mean that anything that the academic system today is holding or creating, could also exist in this new logical framework I am suggesting. Nothing real would be lost. Then there are things that are, let’s say, “less clear”, and worse than this, that also exist in the academic system today, which could be cleared up.

My basic claim here is that this new logic is equal to or better than the existing academic system in every possible way. So, then we can go back to the idea that “humans like success”. I believe that if we could show/demonstrate this new logic, how it works, what it is capable of, basically this could persuade some people to look more into it. As soon as some people look into it, and a conversation arises from it, you could view this as a “self-propagating dynamic”. This is to say that, as long as it could be shown that the new is better than the old, everything being equal, then more and more would come to use the new logical system, rather than the old understanding.

Cultural change with this new logic

So, this is also to say, that if we ask the question of: “How do we make a large cultural change happen?” The answer here might be very simple. Only if we actually could prove that something more fruitful is possible, could a large change happen, but then if we could, this larger change would also be self-evident (everything being equal).

So, the potential of this new logic existing, fundamentally changes how I view and approach the question of cultural change and the best way forward.

And so, like I said in the beginning of this issue, the whitepapers do not consider the existence of such a logic, and are therefore suggesting an approach forward, which is different from how I would go about it.

Appendix 1: Further comments

Just to be clear, the critique I made about the “inner” “outer” distinction in issue 2, is really a critique of the inner, outer distinction that Ken Wilber makes in his AQAL model. Out of everything Wilber had made, I believe you could say, this is the most fundamental. It splits “reality” into four quadrants. And as I see it, these whitepapers are in part based upon these views by Wilber.

What I am saying then is that if you believe in this AQAL model of Wilbers, then you will see things differently. It will affect your perception. How we perceive things is not some minor detail, it is at the very core of everything.

What I am saying is, that there is a very large difference between seeing “laws”, “institutions”, and “technology” as either “part of culture” or “outside of culture”.

I think that the most accurate headline for our third session could be: “Is cultural transformation possible?” As someone who sees institutions, technology, laws, etc. as part of culture, this question makes little sense. For me, this question only makes sense, if you see certain human made things as “outside” culture, then, how do you deal with that? How do you handle that? Can you change this or not? While if you see it as part of culture you would say, yes it is something we do, yes we can change what we do.

I think something very relevant for this area is the question of “How do we see ourselves, others and the world?” Much could be said about this in different times and places, but let me just jump straight into medieval Europe. So quite clearly there was a “god”, who was also “the lord”. This being had created everything, including us, knew everything that was going on, and it was by his graces, that something good might happen to us. There was a very clear hierarchy here, where this god was above humans. This was directly correlated with the word of this god, the Bible. Knowledge was in the Bible and you could read the Bible and gain knowledge. This also meant that there was a certain view of how we learn.

I will just claim it outright and make no further arguments for it, but my basic view is that this basic view of what knowledge is and what learning is, carried into the universities and more properly into what we could call the academic system later. Today, there are a variety of views about knowledge and learning in the academic system, but I would say that the root, the core, is the same.

I am claiming that this view of us humans having someone “above us”, has carried through to our present day and it is just what is taken for granted. For me, the most obvious example for this is perhaps in journalism, where I really feel that the vast majority of journalists are either ignoring their own role (as humans, journalists, people with influence, etc) as participants in creating our culture. Or they see their role as something very superficial and not fundamental. [I guess this is more true in places like Denmark/Europe, where many journalists see themselves as “neutral” (or maybe “not here”), while in the US they tend to take a more active, participatory role.]

I will also say that it does not make much sense to say to for example a journalist: “Hey, journalist, why are you not more self-conscious about your own influence and thereby more reflected on what responsibilities this might imply?” Because, we as humans believe stuff, we believe in different stories. A change like this could not happen from critiquing. Instead, what we would need to do is to present a new coherent story, where our role of us creating the culture we live in, is so.

Coming back to the whitepapers, I guess I do also wanna say that if I were to have made an “Issue 4”, and an “Issue 5”, these would possibly have been: “What about intention?” and “What about learning?” Intention is maybe even more important than learning, but still for me, if we are talking about personal development and cultural change, intention and learning are absolut central ideas. In the whitepapers I think these two ideas are mentioned a few times in passing, but they are not central. So I am suspicious of this.

Finally then, if we change our view of culture to include laws, institutions, technology, etc. I think this also opens up something else, which I briefly mentioned in issue 3. This is the matter of what “role” or “function” does in the culture has? So for me, the most relevant area of our culture to look at, is the academic system. The academic system is the most deciding factor in determining whether something is “true” or “not true”, in our culture. This is just so much at the heart of everything we have been writing and I could not imagine talking about larger cultural changes in the positive direction, without meeting the academic system.

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Thanks @Rasmus for this extensive contribution!

My hope is to incorporate these ideas in our subcircle research process (next session - May 8) on unpacking the 2R white papers.

To quickly summarize @Rasmus ‘s key points, here are three quick main ideas:

  1. is goal-directed action an improvement over diagnosis/cure or problem/solution thinking?

  2. are there better frameworks than Wilber’s AQAL, in particular the inner/outer distinction?

  3. can a proposed multi-dimensional Theory of Everything improve on current logics?

I invite anyone to respond to these questions here in print, or to bring responses to the next subcircle Zoom call on May 8. Prior to this paper by @Rasmus my thinking in regards to the May 8 session revolved around the question of “how can inner work or inner space affect cultural change?” I believe Rasmus’s three main points speak to this, especially point 2). So discussing the paper (and the underlying whitepapers) seems advantageous for exploring the topic I had in mind anyway!

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I’d like to find out more about your objections. I don’t feel you’ve made it clear enough.
You can apply inner and outer to a lot of things - and if we start with trust, for example

not trusting others will revert you into your inner and affect a lot of other systems - your perspectives, wordview and actions.

having high level of trust will allow you to have collective ideals, cohere around common purpose.

Then at lower level, you can talk about conscious and subsconscious. The quadrants are always there but you have a choice or potential to move between them. Happy to talk about it because it’s fundamental to understanding of how it affects futuristic vision and action.

Thank you for your response. Obviously, discussing the AQAL model is a very deep discussion. I will try to expand my critique of the model.

Perception

First I wish to talk about perception, or what do we see and why do we see what we see? So very briefly I will claim that what we see is based upon previous interpreted compressed experience. So for example, at one point in your life, perhaps someone said “car” and pointing towards something moving or holding still (or a picture thereof), a vehicle of some kind. Later on, as we hear more about “cars” and we see more of what we believe to be “cars” we update our idea of “cars”. And, we see/perceive on the basis of the ideas that we have.

Now, do you and I, the people of the forum, or everyone in the world, share the same idea of what a “car” is? No we do not, and we could not in principle, we all come to understand what a “car” is, based upon our own unique experiences and how it is interpreted. However, of course, there could be a large or very large overlap between our idea of what a car is, and it is this overlap that allows us meaningfully to talk about “cars” together.

What about other things besides cars, what about “democracy”? Or a specific person? What about the “sun”? The “Earth”? Same applies.

Alan Watts

Now I would like to briefly introduce another perspective on this. For better and/or worse, Alan Watts did influence me quite much back in the day. One of the things he said was: “a thing is a think”. With this he meant that, it is not like there is this independent/separate “thing” out there in the world, and then you have your own “thought”/“idea” about this thing. No rather, there is an equivalence between the two. Personally, I do think it makes sense just to say this either. I would say that this is one way you can look at it, as there are more ways you can view something.

Modernity’s view of “Perception”

Throughout the whitepapers, the notion of “modernity” is very central. So I would just like to make an additional comment to this as well. I would say that one of the absolut key defining characteristics of the ‘modern’ view, is its view of “perception”. As an “exemplar” of this modern view, I will use the book by Alan Chalmers, “What is This Thing Called Science?” (2013, Fourth edition). This was the textbook of a philosophy of science class that I was given in a university course.

Ok, so to say it briefly. There is a chapter dedicated to discussion perception (“Observation as practical intervention”). In this chapter there is a discussion around the question “do we see reality as it is or not?” In the chapter there are some objections why this is not the case, these objections are then addressed in some way. Ok, so the point I am trying to make here is that, the chapter actually acknowledges that there could be some things that points towards the notion that “we do not just see how things are”, but moving forward, the first page of the next chapter reads: “In this chapter I assume for the sake of argument that secure facts can be established by careful use of the senses.” (Chalmers 2013, p. 25). And the rest of the book relies on this assumption. Just to add a bit further to this trend. The following chapter is about discussing the idea of “facts”. Can you guess what the first page of the following chapter says? “Let us assume, then, that appropriate facts can be established in science” (Chalmers 2013, p. 38). For all times sake, I think that in regards to how “science” is being carried out today, I think its motto could be: “We acknowledge there may have been some discussion about what is and how research should be done, but going forward we will assume that this is not relevant.”

Ok, so what am I saying here? I am saying that a core part of the assumptions of modernity is that we basically “see reality as it is” or “see things how they really are”. In regards to Wilber, I do not believe he shares this view. However, I have not read enough of Wilber to understand how he understands perception. However, I do get a certain feel, that Wilber falls into a kind of trap, where he does not consider perception deeply enough.

Charles Peirce

Ok, then I would like to shift gears a little, introduce a new thinker, and end up presenting a new model.

I am going to cheat here, and include passages that I have previously written, in a text about Peirce. My own thinking about reality and our possibilities of knowing stuff is very influenced by Peirce and I also think he brings out some very fundamental ideas, so I think it is a worthwhile read.

I write:

[The reason why you cannot definitively prove what Peirce means by reality is that he defines reality as independent of what anybody thinks about it, see below. Since reality is considered independent of what we think about it, it also follows that reality is independent of what anybody writes about it, since that writing is an expression of thoughts.

"There are Real things, whose characters are entirely independent of our opinions about them; those Reals affect our senses according to regular laws, and, though our sensations are as different as are our relations to the objects, yet, by taking advantage of the laws of perception, we can ascertain by reasoning how things really and truly are; and any man, if he have sufficient experience and he reason enough about it, will be led to the one True conclusion. " (Peirce 1992, p. 120).

In How to Make Our Ideas Clear, he writes: "Thus we may define the real as that whose characters are independent of what anybody may think them to be. " (Peirce 1992, p. 137).

How to make sense of the above? The conclusion therefore is that there can exist no rational belief for “reality” since any attempt at such a proof would involve language, which could never in principle “capture” or “affect” what Peirce means by reality.

However, if I understand Peirce correctly he is saying that what we think could be what is real. However, there is no way to be certain of this. The only thing one can do is to try out one’s beliefs and see what happens, and the result may then strengthen the belief that the current beliefs one holds are in fact corresponding to the real.

This also goes back to the previous description of how doubt is the only thing that could ground inquiry and how we could not in principle know whether we have arrived at a false belief or a true belief. As Peirce writes: "The most that can be maintained is, that we seek for a belief that we shall think to be true. " (Peirce 1992, p. 114).

The conclusion here is then that one simply has to give up the notion of absolute certainty in regards to “truth”.

Citation:

Peirce, C. S., Houser, N., Kloesel, C. J. W., & Peirce Edition Project. (1992). The essential Peirce: Selected philosophical writings. “The Fixation of Belief” [extract] (p. 114-121). “How to Make Our Ideas Clear” (p. 124-141). Bloomington: Indiana University Press.]

Ok, so what do I gather from Peirce and my previous interpretation of Peirce? Reality exists, it causes stuff, we can define it as exactly that which causes stuff. We can never know if we definitively discovered reality in some degree, although we might have, or we could at least have come very close. Finally, reality would not be affected by our thoughts about reality.

3 view model of reality

Based upon these thoughts by Peirce, I would like to propose a model. Fundamental about this model is that it describes three different ways you can view things. All three ways are equally true and equally present at all times. However, at any one point, we could see things from just one view, having the assumptions that go along with that. The three views are:

The subjective: You could say that everything you ever experience is your own personal experience. Everything you experience is on the basis of your own senses, your own interpretations, taken place in your own body, based upon your previous experiences, etc.

The intersubjective: This is about what is shared among us. Language, values, etc. It is that something is overlapping for more people, to the extent that it is overlapping. As such, we can share the same thing, to some extent.

The objective: So basically the objective is what is unaffected by our thoughts and feelings about it. We can infer that we are born into this world and that this world has a certain structure and we can try to examine it.

The concept of “reality” can be used in some different ways and Peirce in these papers also use it in different contexts, however at least in some aspects he would perhaps say that only the 3. Objective aspect would be what is real for him. Here I will disagree with Peirce. I would say that our subjective experience or what is intersubjective is real as well. For me it is not about is it “real” or “not real” or “exist”/“not exist”, but rather about “what is the nature of the thing” or “in what way does it exist”? So for example, Spiderman is a real, existing, fictional character, known by many people.

Example of culture

Finally, in an attempt to bring home what I have written, I will try to have a brief example. Let us say that we have been having a Zoom group meeting going on. We have been meeting every week for 6 month. We are 8 people and we always show up.

In our Zoom meetings we have a designated moderator, we have an agreed on format, we have a rule that if you wish to speak you should raise your hand, we have norms about not talking too long at a time, we have a rule that if you use the word “coffee” three times in a sentence, you must pay for coffee for everyone, and a person is a designated judge if this happens.

Outside that we of course are a part of a larger culture, I would also say that there is also a culture specific for our Zoom group. If we see what we do in this Zoom meeting as culture, we could also say “let’s do it differently” and as such, we could change the culture by perhaps talking about it and then behaving differently going forward.

I will just say that between 8 people meeting in Zoom, and a larger group, let’s say a whole country, there is no qualitative difference in how culture works. Of course, a whole country is more complex, and there are many aspects that are not addressed in the 8 person group. However, all the principles remain the same. If for example, the small group should wish to move to Microsoft Teams instead of Zoom, create a new platform themselves, or meet in real life, this involves technology. If there is a certain agreed upon rule about behavior and there is a consequence if you break this rule, well this is like a law, and if you have a person moderating this Zoom meeting, well that is an institution.

Final words

I am of course interested in any comments you might have for this, but I am particularly interested in if you could tell me about Wilber’s view of “perception”? And also, do you agree with my example at the end?

You also take up “trust” as an example. However, I don’t see why it is directly relevant in a comparison between Wilber’s and my approach. However, my comment would be that I consider being in contact with reality as a prerequisite of trust and I see my own approach as more closely aligned with reality and as such I see my approach more conducive for “trust”.

Below is an AI summary I ran just to get some clarity on how perception figures into the larger discussion.

The gist of it, IMO, is Descartes is the elephant in the room, with “modernity” (according to most definitions), adhering to the Cartesian subject-object distinction. Ken Wilber did not invent the “inner-outer” distinction. He used it as an organizing principle to arrange the hundreds of existing theories he wanted to connect. The “inner-outer” distinction is all over the history of philosophy, but so are counter arguments against it. So I’m reading your work as basically trying to move beyond Descartes. That puts you in good company, because Cartesianism is generally out of favor nowadays.

What is less clear is wherein lies the emerging consensus? We can go straight to Idealism (Eastern or Western flavored) and make reality purely mental. Or we can go to materialist reductionism, as in much current scientific research into consciousness as an evolutionary emergent phenomenon. Or we can take a linguistic turn and and make conceptual thought the inevitable filter for perception, and try to cleanse those doors of perception through various means.

From the AI summary, Watts and Peirce are on different poles of anti-Cartesianism. It’s interesting that AI did in fact find some common ground. I was not sure such common ground existed between these two, which is why I took a shot in the dark with AI just to see if there was some obscure connection I was missing.


Gemini:

At first glance, Charles Sanders Peirce (the logic-driven father of pragmatism) and Alan Watts (the Zen-popularizing philosopher) seem to occupy opposite ends of the intellectual spectrum. However, they converge remarkably when it comes to how we perceive reality—specifically in their rejection of the “spectator” theory of the mind.

Here are the primary commonalities in their views on perception:

1. Perception as a Process, Not a Product

Both Peirce and Watts argued that perception is not a passive “snapshot” of an external world. Instead, it is a continuous, temporal process.

  • Peirce’s “Synechism”: Peirce believed in the principle of continuity. For him, a single moment of perception is an abstraction; reality is found in the flow of “Thirdness” (mediation and habit). We don’t just see a flash of red; we perceive it as an ongoing sign that relates to our past experiences and future actions.

  • Watts’ “Flow”: Similarly, Watts frequently used the analogy of a whirlpool to describe the self and its perceptions. He argued that there is no “thing” that perceives; there is only the “doing” of perceiving. To Watts, the “knower” and the “known” are two aspects of a single, fluid event.

2. The Rejection of Cartesian Dualism

Both thinkers were staunchly anti-dualist, though they arrived there from different directions. They rejected the idea of a “ghost in the machine” looking out through the eyes at a separate world.

  • Peirce’s Externalism: Peirce argued that “the mind is not in the head,” but rather that the human is a sign operating within a larger semiotic web. Perception is an interaction between the organism and the environment, making the boundary between “inside” and “outside” porous.

  • Watts’ Non-Dualism: Drawing from Vedanta and Zen, Watts argued that the “ego” is a social hallucination. He maintained that what we call “external” reality is actually an extension of our own sensing organs. In his view, “you” are not a subject perceiving an object; you are the entire field of perception itself.

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Someone (I think it was Bertrand Russell) once said that the power of an idea is equal to the number of things it explains divided by the number of assumptions it requires one to make.

I didn’t quite understand your critique of inner vs outer because it seemed to be more an expression of personal preference than critique to me.

Your proposed alternative seems to make a lot of assumptions about the structure of reality. For instance, that belief is a fundamental part of reality. The power of Wilber’s model, like it or not, is that it requires very few assumptions, and they seem well-founded in my mind: namely:

  • inner and outer are meaningful distinctions (your own model seems to presuppose this)
  • individual and collective are meaningful distinctions (again, these seem presupposed in your 9)
  • these are orthogonal

I think you’d need to show counterexamples to this in order to successfully critique the idea. I.e. show how orthogonality doesn’t hold for these concepts.

I have a different way of reading Peirce. What you’ve described here sounds more like Critical Realism than Peirce to me. Peirce’s Pragmatic Maxim is his most definitive statement on what can be considered real, and it’s more a description of a truth-finding algorithm than a definitive statement of what’s real and what’s not. Simply put, something can be considered true when its implications are true.

I don’t think your last statement is entirely accurate. Peirce built upon Kant’s work, which is in my understanding a rebuttal to the idea that reality is not affected by our thoughts about reality (depending on how this is meant). Stated more precisely, what we observe is not reality, it is our observation of something. I.e. what we call reality is always mediated or affected by us, as the instruments of measurement, and a class of presupposed givens that color our perceptions (Kant had 12, Peirce believed they weren’t adequately derived and so he reduced it to 3 - firstness, secondness, thirdness).

As it’s expressed in the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad:

“No one can understand the sounds of a drum without understanding both drum and drummer…”

I agree that it is often useful to start with the desired state and work backwards from there using backward induction/retrograde analysis. It’s also important to start with the problem, at times, in order to know you’re addressing something real. Desired change is, by definition, a future state, and therefore theoretical. Current reality is pre-theoretical in a sense, because we can all (hopefully) agree on the bad stuff we want to change (global heating, wealth inequality, mass surveillance, you name it). Of course, not everyone will view these things as equally valid concerns, but we can develop a shared understanding of these things as problems with fewer assumptions/potential disagrement.

I’m a fan of the Theory of Constraints and a set of thinking tools it includes with names like Current Reality Tree (aka Problem Tree), Future Reality Tree (aka Solution Tree), Goal Tree, Deployment Tree, and so on. It’s not necessary to always start with one of these modes of analysis; sometimes, inspiration or intuition delivers a viable solution before the problem has been fully explicated. Nonetheless, a viable goal/problem/solution/implementation will be amenable to analysis from any point of view. A solution must not be in search of a problem for too long.

Recently I wrote a textbook chapter on the future of information technology, and at the very beginning of it needed to frame the chapter by admitting that no one knows what the future holds, least of all me. So what to write about, then? The chapter basically turned into a wide-angled survey of future forecasting methodologies.

One common thread amongst these methodologies is pattern recognition of historical trends and projection of some number of such trends onto future cycles. So it turns out future navigation requires a historical view. Starting with a future vision, in effect, requires picking some available known pattern as raw material and tweaking it from there. To give a couple sci fi examples: Star Trek was conceived as a Western in space. Star Wars by contrast is samurais in space. The creators grabbed interesting history, put it in different costume, and build sets with ships and other planets. Any sort of “future” we dream up as a goal thus is really the projected memory of some past state we happen to favor.

I’m not saying this to shame anyone or claim some sort of “ah ha” revelation on my part. Just want to clarify matters for improved insight. Whatever “future” lies on the far side of the metacrisis can only be visualized as a return to some previous state we like better than what the world has on offer just now. The future as a such, however, is a Kantian unknowable thing-in-itself, of, for the spiritually minded, a deep mystery of the inscrutable divine. What is available to us here and now are the categories of our existing thought (based on experience) or the revelations vouchsafed to us from the celestial beyond.

Thanks for this. I read your response with interest but couldn’t weave the parts or snap the pieces together easily. I guess what you’re saying is that by integrating all different subjective perspectives (from whatever inner/outer vantage point) will still not yield the objective ontology. And that’s fine and I believe that Wilber would agree too.

Maybe your argument or objection is valid, but more of a philosophical one than structural?

I did an impromptu presentation on the freedom that comes from constrained systems - Georges Perec’s Oulipo school and Dave Snowden. Maybe not relevant but interesting take on (engineered) constraints.

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This all makes sense to me. Just to make myself clearer, by theoretical I meant based on some model that one must accept as a basis for argumentation. A method of forecasting change, in other words (do we see the future as samurais or cowboys, to use your analogy). Describing the present situation is comparatively less so.

I’m not familiar with Perec’s work, thanks for sharing!

Not an easy read - I can share digital books.

This brings me to all the parallel WhatsApp channel action lately on the metacrisis as Locrian and music theory in general.

(There is a back story on that. For several weeks, most of my YouTube surfing has been on geopolitics. Prior to that, on AI. Lately, I just got bored with all that and reverted to music theory, especially on microtonality. Then yesterday I got the bright idea to ask Gemini “if the metacrisis were a church mode, which one would it be?” Notice how the unconscious is pushing the conscious here …)

So yeah, why have musical scales? Because jamming on all the notes all at once sounds like a mess! So any given scale is a constraint. But even with just 12 tones (or fewer even) there is a lot of creative potential. Here’s my pragmatic takeaway (to be tested just a few hours from now in the next research call). We can conduct our discussions in the key of anything. Just pick one! Of course, accomplished musicians can run chord progressions and key changes galore without violating essential compositional unity. Rite of Spring broke all sorts of rules, but it also sort of laid down a new set of rules. My guess is we can have the conversational equivalent of tritones and diminshed scales all over the place and resolve into deeper vibrations unfamiliar in popular discourse, but finding new potentials for future exploration.

I’d generally recommend distinguishing situation from the “complication” with the situation as per SCQH (see https://issuetrees.com/).

Then you want a question which could be something like:

Why is that complication happening and what we would like to do about it (where do we want to end up)?

This would then look a lot like the symptoms + diagnosis.

That is answered in step 3 + 4 of the four step structure (“4 noble beliefs”).

That’s precisely step 4.

This is directly borrowed / derived from Wilber-ian quadrants stuff.

my understanding is that is a useful framework, not the “way the world is” and moreover the quadrants all interconnect.

I don’t know if you have read Wilber closely but i’d really recommend it as he does cover a lot of these sequences and tends to show why one simple linear sequence like this is problematic. (I’m not sure if your sequence is supposed to be hierarchical or have any kind of sequencing).

That’s a very broad definition of culture. I’d stick with something a bit more precise e.g. from the cultural evolution deck we shared in the course https://cultural-evolution-paradigmatic-change-rufuspollock.flowershow.me/

Culture is the shared views, values, beliefs and norms that bond and organise human groups — and shape how we perceive reality itself.

If you can get any kind of control over that system (or even just autonomy as a teacher within it) then it definitely would be. My sense is that the current academy is like the Catholic church of the late medieval period: a great and corrupted institution that is too far gone to be reformed. Academia (as institution) is the institution of modernity. I don’t see much hope for reform from within.

Back in the '80s I was a graduate student at Stanford. (Clueless - buy hey - I got into Stanford!). In any case, a remark I overheard from one of the professors was very telling. It went something like this: “Universities are better at being museums for culture than they are at creating culture”.

Actually in that era, culture was indeed being radically created in and around Stanford. The Home Brew Computing Club, for example. All that kind of went over my head at the time, however. But the tension between being a real academic (and getting paid for it) and true culture-creation (through all manner of alternative formats) has been my constant companion down through the decades.

The way I’m working it here is using this forum and other 2R spaces as a culture-creation studio. But then I publish some of it academically and get paid too! In my forthcoming textbook for example, I cite John Vervaeke on the meaning crisis, Nate Hagens on the carbon pulse, and @rufuspollock on open source. So yes, it is possible to hang out on the liminal web, scoop up good ideas, and “can” them for general academic distribution.

Introduction

Jeez, 4900+ words, this turned out longer than I had originally thought. Anyways..

I think for building or researching something together sharing a common foundation is important.

There has been some talk about “our shared aims” recently and I got an idea for a sub circle, so I start out writing about that.

Simon would sometimes ask something like: “but, what question(s) are you trying to answer?” I don’t believe that this is the right place to start. I think that there exists a level deeper than any question or answer and that is the level of our assumptions. Assumptions are something which are stated, they can be discussed and they can be built upon and they presuppose questions.

I will try to share some thoughts in this vein. I will start off by sharing a little bit about Alan Watts. Then I will include Max Weber and Charles Peirce and look at how they see reality/belief/understanding/knowledge going up to “science”. In writing about Peirce and Weber I will also make use of writing I have done at earlier times (I think it fits in and my views on this have not changed). Finally I will look at how this relates to Ken Wilber’s AQAL model.

After this I will say something about cultural change especially in regards to academia.

At the end I will respond to a few extra things.

About shared aims and suggesting a new sub circle

There has been some talk about “what shared aims” we have in the research group. I think this is an important discussion to have (but not all the time).

I think that the minimum requirement is that people have read the whitepapers (perhaps the first 2), and that they agree loosely on the value of working towards a “Second Renaissance” (although I personally do not like the term “Second Renaissance” that much, but it is also stated, that if we could come up with a better term, that is fine, the term is not the important thing here).

But yeah, what more? If discussing stuff from our own perspective and perhaps trying to get to know one another a bit is the goal, then we are doing that.

So I would like to make a specific suggestion of what I see as possible the most valuable and efficient way forward if large scale cultural change is the goal (as loosely imagined in the whitepapers).

After Robert’s sub circle has ended, I would suggest that we read and talk (and write) about this book together: “An Immanent Metaphysics” (2023) by Forrest Landry.

I haven’t read it and only have a sense, but my sense tells me that this might be the best metaphysical book written to date. So in some sense, I think this is part “due diligence” but also a “low hanging fruit” and also something which could be leveraged much upon.

Also note that while this says “metaphysics” in the title, my sense is that this is very much rather about “pretty much anything and everything”, which is to say, it also includes stuff about ethics and I am imagining thoughts about where we want to end up. So it would not just be a read about something fundamental, but rather a tour de force in inquiring about anything.

So for me, this could be an efficient way of learning something new while it would also help create cohesion in the group for those participating as you are looking at and attempting to address the same thing. Having something like this as a further basis would make us much more able to do something on our own. And also, if we were to read this, it would also open up doors for anyone else in the world who had read it, that we would come in contact with.

(For a “quick” (85 min) introduction to Forrest Landry and his philosophy I can recommend this talk EP96 Forrest Landry on Immanent Metaphysics: Part 1 - The Jim Rutt Show which is part 1 of 3 talks that Landry had with Jim Rutt about his “Immanent Metaphysics” (I have only listened to part 1 myself))

Alan Watts on reality

I include the below quote by Alan Watts as a kind of vaccination against confusing a symbol with what the symbol refers to. This is the same point as not to confuse the map with the territory. This is also relevant if someone should talk about the “material” or “spiritual” world, as these are not self-explanatory concepts. This is a quote from a meditation exercise he once did. I will let Watts have the honors:

“The art of meditation is a way of getting in touch with reality. And the reason for it is that most civilized people are out of touch with reality because they confuse the world as it is with the world as they think about it and talk about it and describe it. For on the one hand, there is the real world, and on the other a whole system of symbols about that world which we have in our minds. These are very, very useful symbols, all civilization depends on them, but like all good things, they have their disadvantages and the principal disadvantage of symbols is that we confuse them with reality. Just as we confuse money with actual wealth. And our names about ourselves, our ideas of ourselves, images of ourselves, with ourselves. Now of course reality from a philosopher’s point of view, is a dangerous word. A philosopher will ask me what do I mean by reality? Am I talking about the physical world of nature, or am I talking about a spiritual world or what? And to that I have a very simple answer. When we talk about the material world, that is actually a philosophical concept. So in the same way, if I say that reality is spiritual, that’s also a philosophical concept, and reality itself is not the concept. Reality is [gong] and we won’t give it a name.”

Max Weber

The problem of combinatorial explosion

Some may be familiar with “the problem of combinatorial explosion” through John Vervaeke. The argument goes that reality is infinitely complex and there would be no way we could be able to grasp anything as a result. Well, Weber was dealing with the same phenomena back in his day:

“Now, as soon as we seek to reflect upon the way in which we encounter life in its immediate aspect, [we see that] it presents an absolutely infinite multiplicity of events “within” and “outside” ourselves, [events that] emerge and fade away successively and concurrently. And, even if we focus our attention on a single, isolated “object” – a concrete act of exchange, for instance – the absolute infinitude of this multiplicity remains entirely undiminished in intensity; [this becomes apparent to us] as soon as we want to make a serious attempt just to describe this “single [object]” exhaustively, in all its individual components, let alone to comprehend it in its causal determination.” (ibid, p. 114)

Value ideas, interests, and what we find significant

How is the problem of combinatorial explosion addressed? For Weber we all have fundamental value ideas. These value ideas give rise to our interests. Our interests determine what we find significant and it is exactly this that in the end allows for causal explanation to be possible:

“The only reason why order can reign in that chaos is the fact that, in each case, it is only a part of individual reality that is of interest and has significance for us, because only that part has a relation to the cultural value ideas with which we approach reality. Consequently, only certain aspects of the, always infinitely manifold, individual phenomena – namely those that in our view possess general cultural significance – are worth knowing, and they alone are objects of causal explanation.” (ibid, p. 118)

Weber on culture and “empirical reality”

According to Weber, we are as humans cultural beings:

"The transcendental precondition of every cultural science is not that we find a particular, or indeed any, “culture” valuable, but that we are cultural beings, endowed with the capacity and the will to adopt a deliberate position with respect to the world, and to bestow meaning upon it. " (Weber 2012, p. 119)

In a short and powerful way, Weber defines culture as: ““Culture” is a finite section of the meaningless infinity of events in the world, endowed with meaning and significance from a human perspective.” (ibid, p. 119).

So what is “empirical reality?”

“Empirical reality is “culture” for us because, and to the extent that, we relate it to value ideas; it comprises those, and only those, elements of reality that acquire significance for us because of that relation.” (ibid, p, 116)

Weber view of actions, aims and personal development of “value ideas”

Any action is either directed towards an “end” or a “means”, for which there is an “end” (ibid, p. 102). Which aims we pursue is our own private affair. The dignity of a person is related to which aims the person is pursuing (ibid, p. 103).

As humans we are fundamentally striving beings (ibid, p. 103) and we can only form our own highest value ideas in contrast to other value ideals. Fundamentally then, life inherently contains conflict. There could be no such thing as all humans coming behind the exact same value ideals (ibid, p. 106).

What Weber seems to believe is that valuation and judgement is a continual process tied together with what it means to be a person. You can not be given personal axioms from another person, rather it is on the basis of your own life experiences that highest value ideas form. We are not born with such value ideas either, consequently it is in the ongoing life that such value ideas form.

Conceptual constructs as central for grasping reality

Weber talks about an “individual reality” and at other places he talks about reality as being more than something individual. How is this reconciled? For Weber, conceptual constructs are central:

“None [of these systems] is anything more than an attempt, on the basis of the state of our knowledge and by means of the conceptual constructs at our disposal, to bring order to the chaos of those facts that we have in a given case chosen to include within the field of our interest. The theoretical apparatus developed in the past by intellectually processing – which in fact means: reshaping – the immediately given reality and by ordering it in concepts corresponding to the state of knowledge and the focus of interest at that time is constantly challenged by the new knowledge that we are able and determined to obtain from reality. It is in this struggle that the advances of the cultural sciences are accomplished. The outcome is a constant process of reshaping of those concepts by means of which we seek to grasp reality.” (ibid, p. 134)

Weber famously introduced the idea of “ideal types”, which he defines below and which helps us make sense of reality:

"The abstract economic theory offers us an example of those syntheses that are usually called “ideas” of historical phenomena. It presents us with an ideal image of what goes on in a market for goods when society is organized as an exchange economy, competition is free, and action is strictly rational. This mental image brings together certain relationships and events of historical life to form an internally consistent cosmos of imagined interrelations. The substance of this construct has the character of a utopia obtained by the theoretical accentuation of certain elements of reality. " (ibid, p. 124)

Weber on science and possibility of truth

Does Weber believes in truth and that we could come to believe in “facts”? According to Weber, we experience reality through values ideas, interests which gives rise to what we find significant. However, all of this can be explicitly made visible. This is done when you make “intellectual constructs”. These intellectual constructs are then not something personal or subjective but rather something which can be scrutinized and examined by everyone. Therefore it could in principle be possible to claim something which would be considered true by everyone, as Weber writes it:

“For it is, and continues to be, true that a methodically correct proof in the field of social science must, in order to have reached its goal, also be accepted as correct even by a Chinese – or, to put it more correctly: that goal must at any rate be striven for, although it may not be completely attainable because the data are lacking.” (ibid, p. 105)

Weber, M.: “The “Objectivity” of Knowledge in Social Science and Social Police”. In Max Weber: Collected Methodological Writings (p. 100-138). Edited by Bruun, Hans Henrik, & Sam Whimster. Taylor & Francis Group. 2012.

Charles Peirce

For all of this I am writing about Peirce, I am only using two of the texts that he has written, his The Fixation of Belief (1877) and How to Make Our Ideas Clear (1878).

Notice that for Peirce, “science” is about fixating or settling your beliefs, which is such a fundamental different conception of science than what is used today. Personally I find “belief” to be a foundational idea and “knowledge” not to be.

I find both of these texts challenging to interpret so please push back if you disagree with something.

I also rely much on direct quotations as it then becomes more true to the source.

Belief and habit

Belief and habit are centerpieces for Peirces thinking. Here are some definitions:

“And what, then, is belief? It is the demi-cadence which closes a musical phrase in the symphony of our intellectual life. We have seen that it has just three properties: First, it is something that we are aware of; second, it appeases the irritation of doubt; and, third, it involves the establishment in our nature of a rule of action, or, say for short, a habit.” (Peirce 1992, p. 129).

“The essence of belief is the establishment of a habit; and different beliefs are distinguished by the different modes of action to which they give rise.”

Doubt and inquiry

Doubt is an uncomfortable feeling that we would like to get out of. Only doubt can give rise to inquiry. The whole object of inquiry is to arrive at an opinion/a belief:

“With the doubt, therefore, the struggle begins, and with the cessation of doubt it ends. Hence, the sole object of inquiry is the settlement of opinion. We may fancy that this is not enough for us, and that we seek, not merely an opinion, but a true opinion. But put this fancy to the test, and it proves groundless; for as soon as a firm belief is reached we are entirely satisfied, whether the belief be true or false.” (Peirce 1992, p. 114-115).

“The irritation of doubt causes a struggle to attain a state of belief. I shall term this struggle inquiry”, though it must be admitted that this is sometimes not a very apt designation." (Peirce 1992, p. 114).

“With the doubt, therefore, the struggle begins, and with the cessation of doubt it ends. Hence, the sole object of inquiry is the settlement of opinion.” (Peirce 1992, p. 114).

The settlement of belief and science

But then how to settle or fix belief? This is a major thing and it is this that ultimately leads to Peirce understanding of the scientific method. Peirce goes through four methods of fixing beliefs.

The first method Peirce calls “the method of tenacity”. The second method Peirce calls “the method of authority”. The third method Peirce calls “the a priori method”.

The forth method that Peirce examines is “the method of science”

How to understand Peirces conception of science?

After having explained science for the first time in The Fixation of Belief, Peirce writes: “The new conception here involved is that of Reality.” (Peirce 1992, p. 120).

For Peirce, real things cause belief:

“The only effect which real things have is to cause belief, for all the sensations which they excite emerge into consciousness in the form of beliefs.”

So Peirce believes in a method (the method of science) that if we use this method, we would eventually reach the same true conclusion:

“This activity of thought by which we are carried, not where we wish, but to a fore- ordained goal, is like the operation of destiny. No modification of the point of view taken, no selection of other facts for study, no natural bent of mind even, can enable a man to escape the predestinate opinion. This great hope is embodied in the conception of truth and reality. The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investigate, is what we mean by the truth, and the object represented in this opinion is the real. That is the way I would explain reality.” (Peirce 1992, p. 138-139).

So what causes then?

Peirce goes into more detail about how this “external permanency” affects us:

“[…]it is necessary that a method should be found by which our beliefs may be determined by nothing human, but by some external permanency […] Our external permanency would not be external, in our sense, if it was restricted in its influence to one individual. It must be something which affects, or might affect, every man. And, though these affections are necessarily as various as are individual conditions, yet the method must be such that the ultimate conclusion of every man shall be the same. Such is the method of science.” (Peirce 1992, p. 120).

By “external permanency” Peirce points towards the existence of laws beyond humans which govern all:

“This activity of thought by which we are carried, not where we wish, but to a fore- ordained goal, is like the operation of destiny. No modification of the point of view taken, no selection of other facts for study, no natural bent of mind even, can enable a man to escape the predestinate opinion.” (Peirce 1992, p. 139).

Peirce’s pragmatic maxim

Peirce’s pragmatic maxim is found in the second text. For how I interpret it, I don’t think we really get how radical it is. We are not some kind of beings who have access to things-in-themselves ideas defined magically by a vocabulary. Rather, our ideas are a result of past experiences and the meaning lies in what effects a thing would seem to imply. As I see it, Peirce has two formulations of it:

“I only desire to point out how impossible it is that we should have an idea in our minds which relates to anything but conceived sensible effects of things. Our idea of anything is our idea of its sensible effects; and if we fancy that we have any other we deceive ourselves, and mistake a mere sensation accompanying the thought for a part of the thought itself. It is absurd to say that thought has any meaning unrelated to its only function.” (Peirce 1992, p. 132).

“Consider what effects, that might conceivably have practical bearings, we conceive the object of our conception to have. Then, our conception of these effects is the whole of our conception of the object.” (Peirce 1992, p. 132).

More on Peirces conception of reality

David, you said that this statement that I made in my last post is not entirely accurate: “Finally, reality would not be affected by our thoughts about reality.”

However, based on the quotations in my last post and the one below, I do not see where my error lies.

I the below quotation to be one of the most difficult passages to interpret of anything I have ever read philosophically, what I get myself is: 1) A dream can be real in the sense that I really dreamt this and this and 2) What ever we may think or feel about a dream, would not alter the reality of how the dream actually played out at the time when it happened.

“But it may be said that this view is directly opposed to the abstract definition which we have given of reality, inasmuch as it makes the characters of the real depend on what is ultimately thought about them. But the answer to this is that, on the one hand, reality is independent, not necessarily of thought in general, but only of what you or I or any finite number of men may think about it; and that, on the other hand, though the object of the final opinion depends on what that opinion is, yet what that opinion is does not depend on what you or I or any man thinks. Our perversity and that of others may indefinitely postpone the settlement of opinion; it might even conceivably cause an arbitrary proposition to be universally accepted as long as the human race should last. Yet even that would not change the nature of the belief, which alone could be the result of investigation carried sufficiently far; and if, after the extinction of our race, another should arise with faculties and disposition for investigation, that true opinion must be the one which they would ultimately come to. “Truth crushed to earth shall rise again,” and the opinion which would finally result from investigation does not depend on how anybody may actually think. But the reality of that which is real does depend on the real fact that investigation is destined to lead, at last, if continued long enough, to a belief in it.”

Can we “know” that we have a “true belief”?

I am not entirely sure but I lean towards that we cannot strictly speaking know for sure, whether or not our beliefs are true or not. Yes you could say that certain practical implications follow from some idea and if everything happens as you expect it to go, this is surely evidence that your idea/belief is true. And it might be true. But for example: Could you not have a belief that your neighbor cleans his house very often, based on the fact that every time you visit the house, it is always very clean. However, in fact the neighbor just hires a professional cleaning service to clean twice a week, and you never noticed. At what point would we go from “all the possible evidence” to “knowing for sure”?

Source:

Peirce, C. S., Houser, N., Kloesel, C. J. W., & Peirce Edition Project. (1992). The essential Peirce: Selected philosophical writings. “The Fixation of Belief” [extract] (p. 114-121). “How to Make Our Ideas Clear” (p. 124-141). Bloomington: Indiana University Press.

Weber and Peirce in relation to Wilber

Why is it relevant to talk about Ken Wilber again? One, because the whitepapers in question are in part based upon his philosophy. Second, because I believe Wilber is the most influential philosopher in this ‘liminal web’ space, so if there should be something problematic about his philosophy, I think it is valuable to look into.

So please help me out here, because I can just not make sense of this AQAL model. I will give one example using Weber and one example using Peirce.

For Weber, we experience reality through first of all our value ideas, which gives rise to our interests, which makes certain things significant for us. Which is to say, our personal values are directly tied up with what we experience in the world.

For Peirce, our ideas/conceptions of things are literally defined as what our “conceived sensible effects of things”/“practical bearings” (which are something in the world) are.

So for me, I can not see how you could consider something “inner” without also considering the “outer” (and vice versa) as these things are fundamentally tied together.

For people who believe in the AQAL model, I have two particular questions:

  1. Do any of the parts or the whole of Weber or Peirce make sense to you?

  2. If the answer is yes, can you try to explain to me how this is integrated for you alongside the AQAL model?

Cultural change

Perhaps one way to look at culture is to look at it as a whole lot of circles. Different sizes, different tones, overlapping in different ways across.

In this context it is possible to ask questions such as what “role” or “function” a specific circle has in relation to the whole culture.

I will only do a bad paraphrase here, but basically in the Danish law there is a specific “University law”. One of the key features of this is that it basically says that the universities should adhere to the highest degree of research excellence. What it would mean to do research is left entirely up to the university (the university system in the world, or the academic system) to define. Ie. There are almost no checks and balances between the political system and the academic system in Danish culture today.

I also do not consider it feasible to try to somehow change the academic system. Instead, we should rather create a better alternative. However, this does not mean that I do not wish to engage with the academic system. It is both a means and an end in itself to engage with the academic system. We as a culture are bound together, and what better people to spar with in creating a better alternative, than academics?

As I mentioned in our last call, I consider the question of “what is science?” To be absolutely key in changing our culture for the better, and I believe many people inside the academic world have an interest in this question as well, so it could be a good place to start.

We have talked some about when do people change beliefs? In short: When there is a better alternative.

I believe that in the future, we would be much more willing and able to see “what is the best thing to do” as a possible “cause”. Which is to say, that we should actually concern ourselves with “what would really be the best thing here?” As this is really the only thing that we all potentially could rally behind, as I see it (so yes, I believe in the Peirce’an notion of a “one true conclusion” that could be arrived at by everyone, if investigated for sufficient time).

Other responses

Do we make assumptions when we do inquiry?

I am of the opinion that we always make various assumptions when we do inquiry. These assumptions can be captured using three questions: “Who are you?” “Where are you?” And “What is the purpose?”.

An alternative way of asking the same is: “What is?” “How is it?” And “Why is it?”

One can address these directly, indirectly or not, but one would always have an “answer” to them when doing an inquiry.

Theorizing or imagining?

I generally do not like to use “theory” at all, since I think it has bad metaphysical connotations.

In this regard I find “imagining” much better than “theorizing”.

We can imagine something using our imagination. However, we can also write some of the stuff down that we imagine. Then we can talk about it. We can be very rigorous in our examination of what we have imagined is realistic or not.

In general, the most efficient way of testing something is using the imagination, however of course it also has its limits as it builds upon past experience and assumptions.

Description or description + complication/problem?

The reason why I just use description is because in one sense description covers “all”. It is even possible to describe someone who imagines something in the future etc.

For me, complications/problems do not exist in and of themselves, rather we could say that problems are something that humans (or other animals) have in relation to achieving some goal that they have.

So in my description I could also include what problems that humans experience. For example, some humans could see “global warming” as a problem, because they wish for long term thriving and rising temperatures, sea level rise, etc, could threaten thriving.

I would also like to note that today, even starting in elementary school and going up to academia, there is this notion of you “start” by “describing” and then you would maybe later “analyze”, then “discuss” and maybe at the end do a “perspectivation”. This all sounds very logical and problem free, the problem lies in that the general view is that what you start out with is the most “easy” and “least important” and you would end up with “where you truly show your skills” and what is most impressive. This line of thinking severely undercuts the value and importance of accurate description. To be able to accurately describe something is severely underrated today and it is not as easy as its reputation has it.

About the ToE that includes culture

The 9 core ideas are interrelated in ways I can not easily describe. But see for example that the idea of “Universe” includes the 8 other ideas, and in general the further you move away from this idea, this less is included.

Also it is a fractal system. So in the full system, the idea of “universe” splits into three “lesser” ideas, which in turn continues to split. While each of these ideas split, they are still connected to every other idea in the same “level” as them (one split down from 9 is 27 ideas, these 27 ideas are interconnected).

I wrote more about the logic used in my presentation: “Is it possible for one framework to contain ‘anything’/‘everything’?”

Thanks, @Rasmus ! To get the word count down to manageable size, I had Gemini run a summary below. If Gemini is seriously wrong about what you are saying, please correct!

Here is a 5-point summary of the forum post by Rasmus on the shared tab:

  • Proposal for a New Study Group: Rasmus suggests that after the current sub-circle ends, the group should collectively read and discuss Forrest Landry’s An Immanent Metaphysics (2023) to build a cohesive intellectual foundation and explore shared aims.

  • Weber on Complexity and Values: Drawing on Max Weber, the post argues that reality presents an infinite multiplicity of events (“combinatorial explosion”). Humans navigate this chaos using inherent cultural “value ideas” that determine what we find significant and worthy of causal explanation.

  • Peirce on Belief and the Scientific Method: The post highlights Charles Peirce’s view that inquiry is driven by the discomfort of doubt, aiming solely to settle on a “belief” (which establishes a habit of action). Peirce’s conception of science is a method where investigation, if pursued long enough, inevitably forces everyone toward the same objective truth.

  • Critique of Wilber’s AQAL Model: Rasmus challenges Ken Wilber’s AQAL framework, questioning how “inner” quadrants can be separated from “outer” ones. They argue that both Weber’s values and Peirce’s pragmatic maxim show that internal meanings and external physical effects are fundamentally inseparable.

  • Cultural Change via Alternative Institutions: Rather than trying to reform the modern academic system from within, Rasmus advocates for creating better alternative spaces for culture-creation and serious inquiry, while still engaging with academics to spar over foundational questions like “what is science?”

Quick responses to the 5 summary points above:

  • on the proposed study group on Forrest Landry’s An Immanent Metaphysics. What do others think? Is there appetite for this topic as a research group subcircle?
  • on Weber. I’m fine with a deeper discussion of Weber’s work. Again, I’m curious how much appetite others would have for that?
  • On CS Peirce, @dvdjsph has some ongoing work inspired by Peirce. Perhaps you would like to touch base with David about that?
  • On AQAL. Wilber’s inner-outer is an expression of the more common subjective-objective distinction. Overcoming the Cartesian division between subject and object is an fairly common theme across many philosophies. It strikes me that systems theoretical and other approaches often favored by 2R research participants are already traversing Wilberian inner-outer boundaries on a fairly regular basis. (See @dvdjsph 's work on Peirce’s semiotics, for example). Do we all need to take a timeout to address Cartesian dualism before we work on anything else? Or can we just understand that subject-object is not a hard distinction and any comprehensive model going forward will need to touch both of those poles?
  • On alternative education models. That’s pretty much a 2R consensus view. It’s in the white papers, for example. Are there any specific alternative education models we should be featuring more?