The Liminal Web: A Technological View

[Hi folks - sharing a first draft of this here - very curious to hear people’s thoughts, I know there are some liminal web experts out there]


What is this thing called the ‘Liminal web’? In this post I’ll try to both introduce the idea and to sketch out a new way of approaching it from a technological angle.

Yes, in plain factual terms, we’re talking about the online ecosystem of thinkers and community-builders that emerged between 2015 and 2020, around a handful of podcasts and youtube channels such as Future thinkers, Emerge, The Jim Rutt Show, The Stoa, and Rebel Wisdom.

But what that description leaves out is what really matters: the ideas, norms, and practices that people within the community care about, and which in some sense unite them into a thing that’s worth naming.

We can get clearer on these, I suggest, by homing in on the different meanings of liminal that are in play here.

A time between worlds

As Joe Lightfoot notes in the much-cited post that defined the Liminal Web back in 2021, “one definition of the word is ‘to occupy a position at, or on both sides of, a boundary or threshold” and for him this connects with a core theme he finds in this space: the idea of “a new kind of regenerative culture”.

And this does seem a red thread that pulls together key ideas in the space: we are living in a time between worlds, between Game A and Game B, where a second renaissance and new forms of collective sense-making are needed to address the metacrisis and the meaning crisis.

But the threshold between cultural epochs is not the only one that’s relevant here.

Between self and other

Consider the threshold between two people, between self and other. The theologian Martin Buber described how by entering into an ‘I-thou’ relationship with another, one crosses into a space that he called ‘the between’.

This canonical liminal space shows up in the Liminal Web in the form of practices like authentic relating, microsolidarity, circling, insight dialogue, essence noting, and Joanna Macy’s communal rituals.

These are not just nodes in Joe’s map of the web, they’re the basis of practices used in video calls and in-person meetings in many liminal communities - where they serve both a quest for community as such, and a search for new protocols of human interaction that can help us make sense of and thereby respond to the metacrisis.

Between matter and spirit

There’s also a spiritual tendency within the liminal web, that can be thought of in terms of the threshold between matter and spirit, atheism and religion, science and spirituality.

For writers like Claire Gillman - author of a book on ‘the spaces in between’ - liminality includes not only spiritual and psychedelic experience that transcends ordinary categories, but also religious and near-death experiences that straddle the threshold between life and death.

The liminal web explores such experiences in an unusually humble and open-minded way, avoiding the temptations of both scientific reductionism and religious dogma. As Joe says in his post it ‘is scientific without scientism. It is spiritual being neither new age nor traditionally religious.’

Between something and nothing

Another relevant boundary is that which defines the Liminal Web itself.

People attracted to it are often outsiders who’ve felt out of place much of their lives, and are therefore wary of identifying as members of any community.

And there’s therefore a corresponding wariness of defining and potentially objectifying the Liminal Web as a thing one could be a member of.

This wariness was in part what inspired the death ritual for the Liminal Web conducted by Peter Limberg, Joe Lightfoot and others, with the hope that it would continue to live on ‘after death’ as an ever-contested and ever-evolving liminal space.

Between IRL and URL

Finally, the liminal web has also been thought of as the edge of the internet as such, hovering at the threshold where the web meets real life.

You can see this in the way that the liminal web pushes video-calls to the limit in which one tries to be fully present to others as if meeting in person.

You can see this in the way that it gained a boost from the COVID lockdowns as people tried to recreate online those communal interactions that could not happen in person.

And you can see this in the way that the liminal web has spawned numerous in-person events and communities, from Rebel Wisdom’s London meetings to Perpectiva’s Realisation festival, to Life Itself’s Gatherings and Future thinkers Ecovillage.

The Liminal Web - a Technological View

This last aspect of liminality, though, prompts various questions about the role of the web in the liminal web.

How closely is the idea of the liminal web bound to an early twenty-first century web technology?

Does the attempt to cross the threshold between web and real-life mean that the liminal web will always remain a kind of second-best when compared to in-person encounters?

And how might further technological developments transform the liminal web?

Let’s take these one at a time.

The Great Connecting

It’s a fairly common observation that COVID struck just as videoconferencing tools such as Zoom and Microsoft Teams reached maturity, allowing a rapid adoption of remote working and socialising.

And it’s no coincidence that the liminal web emerged during this same period, as people saw the potential of using these same technological tools to create new intellectual communities, at a time when in-person gatherings were locked down.

These transitions involved a suite of related technologies. The maturity of secure and stable videoconferencing software was part of an ensemble that also included pervasive hi-quality camera and microphone technology in computing hardware, and perhaps most important of all, the emergence of global access to broadband in what Jim Cashel has called The Great Connecting.

Together, these synergistic technologies of the late 2010s allowed for a ‘facetime’ that was not only robustly high-quality but also - and critically - widely accessible. In case of the liminal web this meant a transition from standard podcasts (although these continued with Daniel Thorson’s Emerge Podcast among others) to the recorded videocall (as in the Jim Rutt show, Voices with Vervaeke), including the more interactive group calls of Rebel Wisdom and the Stoa.

Necessary mediocrity

With the COVID lockdowns long over, however, we’re forced to ask how the new culture of facetime compares to meeting in-person. Should we return to the office? Should we turn off the liminal web and move towards in-person lectures, festivals, gatherings, retreats and ecovillages?

It’s an obvious fact that, despite admirable efforts to bring in-person vibes to the videocalls of the Liminal Web, they fall short of the full-spectrum, whole-body intensity of real life interactions. To the extent that the goal is genuine intimacy and authentic community, the liminal web seems a clear second-best.

There’s an interesting episode of the Emerge podcast, where Vince Horn - discussing an App that allows you to meditate with AI - embraces the fact that his App is a clear second best to doing relational meditation with a real human being.

He appeals to Venkatesh Rao’s distinction between Premium Mediocre products like Starbucks coffee and ‘actually good’ things like a tasty, homegrown courgette. A relevant feature of premium mediocre products is that they are known to be second tier, but are consumed despite this in a signal of aspiration to the actually good.

Though this is a useful distinction, it perhaps underplays the way that such second tier products can still be authentically necessary.

If there’s no one around in your local community for you to meditate with, using the MeditatewithAI app may be the only way to learn co-meditation. Likewise if you’ve not found your ideal in-person, local, spiritually and philosophically aligned eco-community, the liminal web will be necessary for you - at least temporarily.

And perhaps it’s not really temporary. In his interview with Brendan Graham Dempsey, Joe Lightfoot suggests that the ideal might consist of a ‘both/and’ of in-person and online community. Which makes sense if you think of your own slice of the liminal web as an ever-evolving ‘web’ of relationships, and consider how the ability to find ever-new ideal partnerships may require the access to diverse networks and individuals worldwide that only the internet can provide.

In a recent discussion of the liminal web, O.G.Rose points to the way it solves what he calls ‘The Introduction Problem’: “which is usually in order to have communities every single person in the community has to introduce themselves to one another to learn what they’re interested in and that can take like seven years before you get to the place of that kind of dialogos emergent flow conversation”.

And as I read it, this includes just the simple function of connecting people with ideal partners and collaborators they would never have met IRL

Liminal Futures

If the current liminal web is the result of a specific ensemble of technologies, as I’ve suggested, then it’s important to ask how the further development of related technologies might change its nature.

One might well think that any such change would be for the worse. The current technological threesome of software, broadband, and audio-visual capture might be seen as having already more or less reached a peak in fidelity to in-person experience.

It’s true that high resolution digital cameras and quality audio, combined with the streaming capacities of global broadband already make possible a live virtual experience that is close to indistiguishable from reality in many respects.

In many respects but not all.

Most obviously the rectangular frame of our screens cuts off parts of our friends, reducing our fluency with gesture and body language (though at times only a little more than sitting behind a desk).

The two-dimensional flatness of screens also deprives us of the richness of depth perception, including facts about relative sizes of things - which is why we often find people we’ve met only online to be taller, or shorter, than we expect, when we meet them in person.

Less obviously, but perhaps most importantly, the location of cameras at the edges of screens means that direct eye-contact, so important for intimacy, is impossible; something that becomes very clear if you’ve ever tried to do practices involving eye-gazing online.

So we might well consider future technological fixes for these limitations. Science fiction style, 3D ‘hologram’ avatars - which could solve all three issues - are already becoming possible using lasers, or virtual and augmented reality goggles.

Transforming the Liminal

But the worlds of virtual and augmented reality can be used to not only faithfully capture in-person experience, but also to transform it in radical ways, for better or worse.

In his book A Dawn of the New Everything, Jaron Lanier explores the possibility of new forms of non-linguistic communication. He describes immersive environments where people can interact through bodily movement in non-human avatars, such as animal bodies or geometric forms, or using creative virtual tools to interact on deeply imaginative levels in shared, dreamlike spaces.

In addition to such creative expression, he thinks that virtual reality could serve intimacy and empathy by allowing one to ‘walk in someone else’s shoes’ in various ways - for example by inhabiting the more or less viscerally realistic avatar of someone from a different culture, gender or age group, in a sense seeing their world through their eyes.

But he also sensibly warns that such tools are at risk of being co-opted by commercial interests, distorting human connection through surveillance, algorithmic manipulation, or identity commodification.

And the coming wave of AI threatens to exacerbate such concerns as human-AI interactions threaten to supersede human relationships in both subtle and obvious ways - as thinkers like Zak Stein have argued at length.

An ethical approach to design that prioritizes authentic intimacy will therefore be crucial if the liminal web is to survive and flourish in such virtual, AI-haunted worlds.

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Not had time to read this properly yet, but looks like you are raising some great points, @JonahW !

I would like to add the rather meta question: what’s so special about liminality, and why is it worth valuing and writing about? This is not from a detracting position at all – I think I am very much in line actually – but just seeking the kind of clarity that may also help deepen the thoughts here.

It’s a good clarificatory question. I’d say that the question of whether liminality as such is important, is a slightly different question to the one I’m addressing. I’m more interested in how some meanings of liminality seem useful in defining the space called the liminal web - which is of course the reason it’s called that. But it’s a good question whether this implies that we need to take liminality more seriously as a philosophical or political concept.

For methodological reasons, I prefer to ground discussions such as this in experience, so in outline, here’s how it all played out for me:

  • circa 2022 I felt the need to explore new values and new theoretical frameworks. Capitalist acquisition wasn’t cutting it any more.

  • still in late-COVID, and because I’m technical anyway, YouTube played a big part in that exploration. (Here was an early landing spot: https://scienceandnonduality.com/)

  • coupled with that, I starting reading some of my books from the 1990’s before I went down the Internet rabbit-hole full-time, consuming one computer language after the other. My prior reading list included quite a few titles on philosophy of consciousness, so it’s not like I showed up in “liminal web” spaces ice cold to the sort of content often found there.

  • somewhere along the line, links to Ken Wilber started popping up. I’d read SES and Grace and Grit back in the day, so I joined Integral Life to see what was new in that world. From there others pointed me to Hanzi Freinacht and metamodernism in general.

  • all of that felt completely disconnected from my lifeworld, however. No one face-to-face spoke any of this vocabulary or cared much about such ideas. I realized for any of this to really matter, I’d need to have a local culture and local community that practiced at least some of it.

  • (Lots of experiments and initiatives … skipping over here in the interests of space).

  • As of today, my Facing the Future content for my last computer science lesson of the year (very 2R heavy) got at least one heartfelt response from a student who shared that the content furnished from the likes of Nate Hagens and John Vervaeke made her feel “less alone” as she faces career uncertainties after graduation.

  • Search engines just now reminded me that “liminal” is used in the context of rites of passage. So I’m now using liminal web content to devise a pragmatic rite of passage for technical students in a public college. That feels a bit like full circle. Maybe my own rite of passage is now complete.

Yes, understanding the word “liminal” is not very challenging. My curiosity is why the word appears to have become so fashionable amongst us.

Yes, we want to continually moving on from one place, crossing a threshold and growing wiser. But that doesn’t mean we want to be liminal all the time, does it?

So if a rite of passage is complete, there’s little attraction in liminality then, no?

Why the emphasis on being liminal rather than, say, being in a good place?

Surely liminality needs to be counterbalanced with, say, solidarity, consistency, reliability?

Of course I’m not in favour of anyone being “stuck”, and maybe that’s what people are implicitly implying with liminality, is it? We don’t want to be stuck, so we need to recognise liminality?

Or is it something much deeper at an ontological level? If so (and I’m ready to consider this as quite possible) then could we surface the whole concept a bit more?

That part about my rite of passage being complete was a creative riff in the moment. After posting that, I went out on the patio (well before dawn) with a cup of breakfast tea to ponder what it meant. It felt right. But why?

What came up for me was that providing 2R content to my local students in ways they can process and embrace, was something like a capstone project in a three year course of study. Something like defending my thesis. Or even more - it’s like I’m now an ordained priest in some shamanic religion that is scarcely defined and I am now empowered to usher younger supplicants across that same threshold.

The spring 2022 version of myself would have never even considered broaching the topic of “love” on a CS class discussion board, let alone using Nate Hagens to sort out the metacrisis or John Vervaeke to address AI and the meaning crisis. The 2023 or 2024 versions would have wanted to discuss all that, but would have lacked the skillful means to do so in a way that did not distract from the CS topic at hand. (I got close in 2024, but not quite there. That’s why I am rewriting those lessons into “Facing the Future”.)

So a shamanoid priest type must first cross the threshold, which appears at many moments like a plunge into sheer madness. Upon reemergence, that person then guides others on their own journeys, qualified by hard experience. The liminal - as in the hazy borderland between worlds - is the native territory for that personality, or the person consecrated to play that role.

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Revised version with some updates based on feedback now available here: The Liminal Web: A Technological View - The Wider Angle

I’ve been thinking about this interesting question some more, a couple more thoughts:

While as I’ve said there are various aspects of the meaning of liminal that are highly relevant to understanding this community, there’s perhaps one aspect that is somewhat at odds with it. There’s an approach to liminality that says that everything is merely transitional and temporary, and which smacks of postmodern scepticism, and as you say is not counterbalanced by solidarity, consistency and reliability as it would be in a metamodern frame.

I’m also increasingly thinking that the interpersonal liminal can be seen as a central concept in the space. I’ve been reading First Principles and First Values which essentially defines the metacrisis as a “global intimacy disorder”, thus making the interpersonal liminal central to the idea of a time between worlds.

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Here’s a paragraph I gave my CS students in the past week as a summary to about 10 pages of historically-informed futurism.

"Let me close on an optimistic note. The futurists I admire the most (like Peter Pogany) are both practical and visionary. They envision things like stable planetary governance and sustainable economic flows based on renewable energy that is our planet’s legacy from the Big Bang. It could certainly happen. But it will take a ton of human coordination on scales not found as yet anywhere in the historical record. Globalization and the US-based post-WWII order were at most a rough draft of what a well-organized, human supporting planet might look like. Innovation (a la Kurzweil) has not been our problem. Integration has been our problem. Can civilizations collaborate with a flourishing biosphere? So far, not yet. The pattern up until now has been environmental overshoots, hard limits, and collapse. We may be headed that way again. But if AI can ramp up planetary communication and collaboration, maybe it can nudge culture in the right direction. I doubt that will work, however, unless we also nudge ourselves. "

The Kurzweil and Pogany references reflect my dialectical structuring of all the historical futurism. Lots of tensions between techno-optimist, capitalist growth models (Kurzweil), and entropy-informed, alternative economics (Pogany and quite a few others). I’m on the razor’s edge between those two worlds.

With respect to the question of “liminal”, as a more-or-less objective observation, we are absolutely in global transition. Who here thinks there is anything remotely long-term stable about the current state of affairs? On the other hand, long-term stability is absolutely my favored action target (Pogany’s Global System 3). I have little patience with my brothers and sisters in the environmental community who are so busy with grief work or questioning all prior assumptions that they can’t bother with anything constructive at all. Make no mistake about it - I’m here to build the next version of the world system - not to wallow in endless meaning crisis angst.