We need to talk about quantum theory

I think when the historians look back on “the Second Renaissance”, they will identify quantum theory as of central importance. It is now exactly 100 years since Heisenberg, Schrodinger and Dirac (in three independent papers) discovered the basic mathematical theory. In that century the science of quantum theory has transformed the world, but the theoretical implications have just left us thoroughly confused. I believe that the most important shift in our understanding of reality – the heart of the theoretical revolution that is coming – will involve a dramatic resolution of this situation. In other words, in the world after 2R quantum theory will not longer be this “thing that doesn’t fit”. Rather, it will be a central component of a radically new way of understanding the nature of reality. It will belong. It will make sense.

Apart from regularly mentioning Henry Stapp (who almost nobody has heard of, and even fewer actually understand his theory) I have avoided this topic until now. I’ve tried explaining my position in various places to various people, and it is generally quite difficult to make much progress. But I think we need to talk about it.

I believe the reason QM is still so hard to get to grips with is that none of the theories currently on offer is telling the whole story. Currently we are faced with a choice between theories which are wrong and theories which are partly right but nowhere near complete. The position I wish to defend is new – it is partly based on existing theories (it had to be, because I am no quantum physicist) and partly involves some new ideas which are required to connect it with other parts of the 2R picture, especially the Hard Problem of Consciousness (HPC).

Unlike some other aspects of 2R, cutting and pasting sections of my book aren’t going to work so well with QM. That is because I leave most of that in an appendix, and use the main text to explain to the reader all the other relevant bits before going into the history of quantum metaphysics. It would be better if I write something deliberately designed for the audience it might find here, and in order to do that I need to understand where people currently are.

So I would like to ask an open question. What is your current understanding of the interpretations of quantum theory, and what has it got to do with the ideas we are talking about on this forum? What do you think is its relevance to 2R?

I refer you to Richard Feynman.

Maybe it would help to progress the discussion if you tell me/us what it is that Feynman said to which you are refering me?

We need to get beyond “Christ this is weird. Nobody understands it.” In the right context, it will make perfect sense. It needs to “click” in a way that currently it usually doesn’t.

We also need to get beyond “Only mathematicians can understand this.” If the mathematicians could understand it then they would all agree with each other about what it actually means. In fact, the problem isn’t understanding the mathematics at all. It is philosophical. Purely conceptual.

My views on this are not terribly original, but quantum theory, coupled with relatively, along with Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, signaled the end of pure Newtonian mechanics and scientific rationalism as a viable world view. Logic alone fails to paint the complete picture. Gebser saw in this the emergence of the integral. The evolution of analytical philosophy from Principia Mathematica to Wittgenstein’s language games is also telling. It was not just continental philosophy that relativized language and culture. Metaphorically, quantum theory ended human historical metanarrative as well. There just is no calculable mechanism underlying everything.

The 2R project seems like one of many to articulate a new world view based on complexity, emergence, non-linearity, and a more holistic human psychology. I’d say the project is generally “integral” in Gebser’s sense.

1 Like

OK. From my point of view this basically completely wrong (although not in any way unusual), but we need to get a bit deeper into it to make sure.

Wittgenstein is quite important, but maybe not in the way you are thinking. I don’t think W was influenced by QM at all. I think his position was more like the culmination of modernist philosophy as things looked before QM. Certainly that is true of the Tractatus, but I think probably also of the Investigations.

It sounds like the position you are defending is that it is impossible to understand what quantum mechanics is telling us about the nature of reality – that it cannot ever make sense because of something to do with Godel’s theorem.

Can you say what it is about QM that should lead to us giving up on ever being able to understand how it fits into a coherent worldview?

To be clear: I am not suggesting that we will ever be able to calculate everything. What I’m saying is that it is perfectly possible to explain, conceptually, what we can calculate and what we can’t, and why. And that could lead us to settle on a specific interpretation, just because that is the only interpretation that fits into the bigger picture without knocking other things out of place.

My thinking is not that quantum theory caused anything else directly. More like quantum theory along with multiple other things undermined confidence in cause and effect linear relationships.

I think we can do much better than that, both in terms of clarity and direction of travel.

What I was really looking for was people’s answer to the question “Which metaphysical interpretation of quantum theory do you think is correct?” and “What has this got to do with 2R?”

There has got to be a correct answer, even if it is impossible to objectively arrive at it. I believe the reason we will know it is the correct answer will be because of the way it coheres with other things which currently look like problems we don’t know the answer to.

For example – why can we find no signs of life anywhere in the universe? Yes, I know there are all sorts of competing answers to that question, but they are rather like the competing interpretations of QM – none of them seem to stand out as the right answer, or fit particularly well with other mysteries.

Other examples – what was the cause of the Cambrian Explosion? Why does it subjectively feel like we have free will? How can something come from nothing? Why are the laws of physics “just right” for the existence of life?

What could these things possibly have to do with the mysteries of quantum theory, you might ask. Well…I think what we’re looking for is some sort of big picture where several of these mysteries somehow “click together”. These problems need to solve each other. Imagine a series of knots on a piece of string which cannot be undone unless you bring them together in just the right way.

The quotation is " if you think you understand quantum mechanics then you don’t understand quantum mechanics". I believe it is actually a joke about conflating what qm does with how it does it. You seem very keen to produce a life the universe, everything including the kitchen sink theory related to 2R so everything “makes sense” to your satisfaction. This is incredibly ambitious and I suspect impossible to achieve as at each stage more abstract theories and concepts are added in to the mix. That is your (quixotic) priveldge but I doubt if you will find many who have the inclination to follow you on this saga which is a shame. You have many great ideas already on the go that could usefully be consolidated and developed. You seem disinclined to do this (maybe you find this sort of work boring) instead cvonstantly leaping off on another esoteric metaphysical tangent of some sort in your quest to develop the ultimate god like meta meta meta theory of all encompassing everytyhing. Good luck but you will fail.

Oh and one more thing IMHO less is more.

1 Like

There is no single quantum theory. There are many. The dominant ones are not necessarily the right ones. Scientific theory is shaped as much by society (and to a degree vice versa) as actual observations. Were society more interconnected and capable of integrating the factual observations related to system complexity, biological symbiosis and (as someone else mentioned) Godel’s incompleteness theorem, then probably the most dominant quantum theory would be a variation on Bohm’s hidden variables.

1 Like

There are many metaphysical interpretations. Not all of them can be right. At most, one of them is right, or more than one might be partly right. But most of them are wrong. The question is whether what we can conclude about this, both individually and collectively,

Hi Rogadair (Roger?)

You seem very keen to produce a life the universe, everything including the kitchen sink theory related to 2R so everything “makes sense” to your satisfaction.

It is no use if it only makes sense to my satisfaction. The world is full of cranks with ambitious ideas. Nearly all of them wrong. Every now and then one of them is less wrong.

Theories must be judged on their merit, not the category of theory they belong to.

That is your (quixotic) priveldge but I doubt if you will find many who have the inclination to follow you on this saga which is a shame.

That has to be tested in the real world, and it will be.

You have many great ideas already on the go that could usefully be consolidated and developed. You seem disinclined to do this (maybe you find this sort of work boring)

It is not possible to have a project of assembling a big picture that makes sense and also “consolidate and develop” all the component parts. Those are different tasks, and best done by different people.

Good luck but you will fail.

Do you see anybody else trying?

I see quite a few. And I truly believe that together, we are going to succeed.

Postmodernism has left Western society unable to believe we will ever be able to make sense of the world.

Do you believe it is impossible that we can move beyond the fragmented mess that currently exists to a much more coherent world picture? Or do you just not believe it is possible that my specific ideas are right (or heading in the right direction)?

There is a lot to unpack here and each question could easily occupy a separate thread.

I think it is interesting you use the word “believe”. However believing something, knowing something, proving something and achieving something are all distinctly different activities of increasing difficulty.

As to belief personally I believe that, on present evidence, success is not assured and we may indeed never be able to make sense of the world. I would love to see evidence we can move beyond the current situation and find your ideas interesting but as yet have insufficient knowledge to be able to judge their veracity.

I’m unable to link the Quantum Theory to the 2R. Do you think that some mechanistic secret is there to be unlocked? Do you think that the more we dig into the science the more meaning we’ll find?

Finally, quantum theory has a lot of parallels with postmodernism - they both challenge the belief in certainty, absolutism and objectivity.

I think the answer is already there, and it has not been noticed because the scientific community is blinded by materialistic groupthink. The problem is that the answer isn’t really scientific at all – it is conceptual/logical.

I think it is interesting you use the word “believe”. However believing something, knowing something, proving something and achieving something are all distinctly different activities of increasing difficulty.

Again, the problem is that too many people in the scientific community have failed to understand the proper boundary between physics and philosophy. They are searching for a materialistic solution to a problem which does not have one, because materialism itself is the problem. This problem is logical – exactly the sort of problem that scientists are usually good at spotting – which just adds to the groupthink (“How could all these rational people have missed a logical problem!?)”.

There is a pathological refusal to accept that there could be some sort of important connection between quantum mechanics and consciousness. This is even though the person who initially proposed that connection was none other than John von Neumann – the most influential scientist/mathematician of the 20th century, and quite possibly the smartest human who ever lived. The amount of times I’ve explained this to people only to be met by the response “I don’t care if von Neumann was the smartest human ever to have lived, THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN QUANTUM MECHANICS AND CONSCIOUSNESS!” Never does it cross their minds that maybe he understood something they do not. And the reason is that his proposal is not consistent with materialism.

Here is the connection:

The hard problem of consciousness (see The Hard Problem of Consciousness and 2R - General - Second Renaissance Forum for a full description):

The HP is the problem of explaining how consciousness (the entire subjective realm) can exist if reality is purely made of material entities. Brains are clearly closely correlated with minds, and it looks very likely that they are necessary for minds (that there can be no minds without brains). But brain processes aren’t enough on their own, and this is a conceptual rather than an empirical problem. The hard problem is “hard” (ie impossible) because there isn’t enough conceptual space in the materialistic view of reality to accommodate a subjective realm.

It is often presented as a choice between materialism and dualism, but what is missing does not seem to be “mind stuff”. Mind doesn’t seem to be “stuff” at all. All of the complexity of a mind may well be correlated to neural complexity. What is missing is an internal viewpoint – an observer. And this observer doesn’t just seem to be passive either. It feels like we have free will – as if the observer is somehow “driving” our bodies. So what is missing is an observer which also participates.

The measurement problem in quantum theory:

The MP is the problem of explaining how the evolving wave function (the expanding set of different possible states of a quantum system prior to observation/measurement) is “collapsed” into the single state which is observed/measured. The scientific part of quantum theory does not specify what “observer” or “measurement” means, which is why there are multiple metaphysical interpretations. In the Many Worlds Interpretation the need for observation/measurement is avoided by claiming all outcomes occur in diverging timelines. The other interpretations offer other explanations of what “observation” or “measurement” must be understood to mean with respect to the nature of reality. These include Von Neumann / Wigner / Stapp interpretation which explicitly states that the wave function is collapsed by an interaction with a non-physical consciousness or observer. And this observer doesn’t just seem to be passive either – the act of observation has an effect on thing which is being observed. So what is missing is an observer which also participates.

Once this connection is made, other parts of the puzzle can be moved into place. But to make it, you have to be prepared to accept that materialism is incoherent – that it must be ruled out on logical grounds. In my experience, very few materialists are capable of accepting this. Instead, they defend materialism with all the irrationalism of the quasi-religious belief it actually is.

This is why metaphysical materialism is one of the things that must not be smuggled into the new paradigm. Cannot be. 2R won’t work unless it rejected. 2R needs to involve radical new thinking, and this is one of the places where the rubber actually needs to meet the road.

they both challenge the belief in certainty, absolutism and objectivity.

Yes, but in both cases the devil is in the details. Schrodinger’s cat could be dead, alive or maybe even both, but we can say with absolute certainty that it is not a dog.